[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think it's great to see just how nails it is though. I remember a lot of chat at the time about how Tommy and co were a bit second rate because of their tactics, with the assertion that "Ondra would piss it ground up so this ascent is compromised". Now that Ondra is struggling on it, it completely puts that argument to bed and vindicates the original style of ascent I think. It would be great to see Ondra improve on the style in the end.

What a load of rubbish Will!

I think your post sums up a lot of the issues we have about credibility, significance, the media, what gets reported.

Rather than revisiting the arguments for/against T&K's ascent, you're effectively saying their ascent is valid because Ondra is finding the route nails. You might as well be saying that his mother used to have a pink Chihuahua, for all the difference it makes.

There are many amazing climbing feats - "ascents" - which are accepted despite question marks - of which Tommy and Kevin's futuristic effort is one. But the question marks do remain. Without revisiting all the previous arguments here, they help us understand how future ascents can improve on how things were done previously, or whether there might have even been a conceptual "dab" - see "Bring out your conceptual dabs"..

If we start validating ascents based on a particular climber's status, then myth making is all that matters. Who knows, maybe it is, but I think - the sometimes boring and inconvenient process of - sorting out fact from fiction helps us understand what's really being done.

No-one cheats anymore, and somehow attention/media coverage etc = validity. I think we can look beyond that; if we can't, then we can't criticise the *"armchair idiots" who do.

*speaking from the luxury of experience from the last time I didn't do a big wall

[tomtom]

There is a lot of chat on the internet. A lot of it is from armchair idiots though.

Thats pretty insulting.

as I'm OBVIOUSLY an office chair idiot today.

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! tbh, imho, wft, swalk etc..

[petejh]

There is a lot of chat on the internet. A lot of it is from armchair idiots though.

Anyone who doesn't know how to use an armchair is indeed an idiot.

[kelvin]

swalk etc..

What the actual fuck is swalk?

[slackline]

swalk etc..

What the actual fuck is swalk?

define swalk

[andy popp]

SNAFU is my favourite in that vein.

[kelvin]

swalk etc..

What the actual fuck is swalk?

define swalk

Pfft. I've been single for years - how am I supposed to know what that means?

[slackline]

Pfft. I've been single for years - how am I supposed to know what that means?

I didn't know what it means either, yet I've been with my wife for 21 years (married for 10).   I can however use a search engine.

[kelvin]

I thought search engines were for shopping, Me bad.

[fatdoc]

best thread of the year on ukb.. for sure...

[Danny]

Dawn Wall is nails. Didn't see that coming 

Euro sport beast (unfair description of AO, I know) doesn't completely trounce Yosemite big wall. Didn't see that coming.

TBF, I'm sure there's a little part of KJ—and a somewhat bigger part of TC—that's pretty pleased he's having a reasonably hard time of it.

[duncan]

Reports here that he's done pitch 15 barring the start which was wet, pitch 16 (the loop), and top-roped pitch 17 (the last of the really hard pitches at 5.14a/8b+).

[Ti_pin_man]

I love this, how many years did it take Kevin Jorgeson and Tommy Caldwell to do dawn wall.  Lots.  Everybody knows AO is a great climber and its fascinating to see him find it nails.  They come from different places and I admire AO for trying it.  Its not his usual type of climbing.  It took big kahoona's to go and publicly climb Dawn Wall.  I admire his balls and now his honesty.   

[petejh]

It took big kahoona's to go and publicly climb Dawn Wall.  I admire his balls and now his honesty.   

[SA Chris]

SNAFU is my favourite in that vein.

FUBAR is also good.

[Lopez]

SNAFU is my favourite in that vein.

FUBAR is also good.

SWAG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Wild-Ass_Guess

[slackline]

Back on topic...

Interview with Adam Ondra on his progress

[Nemo]

Funny that you have to look to non climbing media to get an interesting interview

Anyway - sounds like everything above the crux pitches went pretty smoothly...

"We just made it to the top of ElCap.  Adam onsighted most of the pitches between BC and the top." - https://www.instagram.com/pavelblazek/

"I remember a lot of chat at the time about how Tommy and co were a bit second rate because of their tactics, with the assertion that "Ondra would piss it ground up so this ascent is compromised". " - Will Hunt

I don't think anyone sane said anything of the kind.  As Dave pointed out, the discussion about the possibility of Ondra trying the route and the discussion about TC and KJ's style of ascent were entirely separate.


This is what I said last year about the potential for Ondra trying the route, and I pretty much think it still stands.

"As for how fast he could do it – it depends on how the route was set up.  If he got someone else to do all the hauling, aid the pitches before he climbed them and pre place all the gear etc – essentially set the route up in the way it was for Kevin and Tommy’s ascent – so that he could just climb in sport climbing mode...  Then I think he could probably do the whole thing ground up in a week.  He’d probably onsight the majority of it – and maybe need a day for each of the 9a pitches. ...

If on the other hand he just set off with a mate and was having to figure out all the weird gear placements etc – that’s a different ball game altogether – he’d struggle and it would probably take him quite a few weeks just to suss out the gear / big walling technique etc…

The other thing Ondra would definitely have taken note of is when this ascent got done – arguably one of the biggest hurdles Tommy and Kevin have had is that they were trying the route when it was too warm.  Noone has tried to free really hard big walls in Yosemite in January before – and for the hard pitches on this route it has clearly made all the difference."

I think that was a reasonable guess.  I still think that if he'd turned up in Dec or Jan with a full support team, having spent a few months prior to that doing other routes on El Cap and in the Valley - that he'd have been able to do it ground up in a week or so.

I am a bit surprised he jumped straight on it without doing anything else in the Valley first.  And even more surprised he's trying it in Oct / early Nov, given the clear difference it made on the hard pitches when TC and KJ started trying when it was way colder...

"Possibly the biggest breakthrough Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson experienced on the Dawn Wall happened last December when Caldwell freed the brutally hard Pitch 15 at 5.14d. However, the breakthrough was that Caldwell and Jorgeson realized that the world's hardest big-wall had to be attempted in the dead of winter.
"It 's looking like winter conditions are the way forward," posted Caldwell last December. "
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/caldwell-and-jorgeson-are-charging-up-the-dawn-wall

Then again -  what he's doing - turning up with a mate, when there's still plenty of daylight and people in the Valley - is probably way more fun - as long as you don't care about what people say about how long it's taking etc - and he clearly couldn't care less.

And of course, it would be pretty tricky (especially if you don't live in the States) getting a few weeks of consistent good weather mid winter in Yosemite when there isn't too much snow around.  So perhaps he figured he'd just trade the bad conditions with higher probability of decent weather.

Anyway, given the time of year I'm not at all surprised that he's finding the crux pitches pretty horrendous.  I'd have thought he'd be better off getting the rest of it sussed and coming back to them if / when it cools down.   But hey, I guess once you've heard so much about them it's gonna be hard to avoid getting sucked into trying them if you're aiding past, even if the conditions are entirely unsuitable.



As for the so called "criticism" or TC and KJ - I don't think anyone was really that "critical".  What they pulled off was clearly amazing.  It was just a continuation of a discussion about style - something that TC and KJ had talked about at length prior to their ascent.

To me, it did feel in the end like they were under a stack of pressure because of all the media attention, and so they had to make a lot more comprimises than they would have otherwise done to try and ensure a positive news story at the end of it all.  In particular, for me the whole "team free" thing just feels really artificial once you've been working on something for years - if I'd spent that long on something, I wouldn't feel like I'd done it unless I'd redpointed all the hard pitches.  But perhaps they felt they weren't quite ready for that - and given the amount of time they'd spent on it, it was perfectly understandable they just wanted to get it finished and move on.   



Anyway - lets hope it doesn't just snow for the next month - given a reasonably cold weather window for 10 days or so in November, it sounds like it's pretty likely that it's gonna get a second ascent...  Actually, having read that new interview, sounds like he's pretty determined to stick around till he's done it, however long it takes...

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Great post about the happy Wondra!

"Then again -  what he's doing - turning up with a mate, when there's still plenty of daylight and people in the Valley - is probably way more fun - as long as you don't care about what people say about how long it's taking etc - and he clearly couldn't care less."

And as Slackline pointed out above too, the most fantastic thing of all, is that he's just mad keen to get on the thing, and have fun.

 

Total respect to TC and KJ for the vision too.   

[duncan]

I don't think he freed the CC.

You're right, I'm wrong. He didn't even try the CC according to big-wall camper Pete Zabrok (who was getting a cold shower on New Dawn and escaped down Ondra's fixed lines).

SWAG

 

Health economics right there.

[ferret]

Update from Adam: "We had two busy day on the wall, but extremely important motivating ones! At first, I tried the pitch 14, where I still had no idea about what to do in the last boulder problem. After a little session, I could finally do the moves and soon after I gave it a go, but I realized that my beta for the intro moves on the last boulderproblem did not work. It took me a lot of time, skin, frustration and swearing to finally find a satisfying sequence, but I was exhausted and my skin thrashed. I still gave it a another that night, slipped on the first boulderproblem but then continued to the anchor. Which gave me a lot of confidence that next time it should work out.
Second day, I was incredibly lucky to get overcast day, so I could make a lot of work. At first, we took some pics with Heinz Zak in pitch 14 (5.14d), then went down and sent pitch 8 (5.13d) and toproped pith 7 (5.14a). After lunch, I went for pitch 11 (5.13c) and linked the whole crux sequence, then linked the whole crux in pitch 12 (5.14b). Then we went down for toprope session on pitch 10 (5.14a) which is always desperately wet in the dark, but I still made it with one hang in toprope. To finish the day, I just re-ckecked the moves on pitch 9 (5.13c).
It seems like I need yet to work a bit more on pitches 10, 12 and 13 (5.13b) and then pitches 1-6 (only 5.12b to 5.13c range) and I would be ready to go for the push. Can't wait!!!"
TENDON athlete Adam Ondra

[Durbs]

Has he said whether he's going to go for the dyno or loop on the final push?

[Doylo]

Has he said whether he's going to go for the dyno or loop on the final push?

Loop by the sound of it. Don't think he managed the dyno.

[haydn jones]

I heard he was doing the loop pitch but then linking it in to the next piych to make an 8c+

[Doylo]

Imagine actually choosing to climb a 8c+ on a big wall just to save a bit of faff.