[danm]

Are you a regular down the Dale? Do you spend every waking hour in Summer down in the stygian gloom stick clipping, redpointing and performing other more esoteric practices? If so, then read on and spread the news to other afflicted, like-minded souls who don't do UKB.

Lower off's down the Dale are a bit of a mixed bag, so the BMC have managed to obtain a supply of stainless steel maillons and rings which can be retro-fitted to existing good belay bolts. The plan here is to help make lowering off safe and easy, whilst saving wear and tear on the bolts themselves (saving a lot of work and expense in the longer term). It's a system which has worked extremely well where it has been used before (Upper Pen Trwyn) and is less visually intrusive than a chain belay.



What's needed is people to check over belays and if they think they are needed, fit the parts. This can be done in the course of climbing a route as per normal. Areas which have been flagged as potentially needing these the most are the Embankment and the Cornice. Peak Area Chair, Rob Greenwood has helped put together a  Google doc which can be used to keep a record, starting with the most climbed routes according to the other channels logbook database.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L8K2ZwBjVGJSZYXl1RndZ1Xag__89n7utzf22eL1uIY/edit?usp=sharing

Some of these routes might not have lower off's, or share them, and there's probably some really good routes which aren't on the list - I'm happy for the more knowledgeable to make changes to the list so I've left it open for editing.

How's this going to work then? We can have a stash of rings which people can PM me to get hold of, but it might help if folks who go down the Dale a lot took some with them to either fit themselves, or hand out to other people down there. PM me if you fit the bill.

Fitting notes: IMPORTANT!

• Only fit these to good bolts. If you check a belay and the bolts or rock they're in concern you, don't fit them and update the Google Doc. If it's really bad, warn people on here or by social media etc.
• Orient the maillon so that the barrel has to be unscrewed against gravity, and with the barrel away from the rock, like in the RH-side image above. We'll dish out some tubes of Loctite to put on the threads before you screw them up. It's best to screw them up moderately tight with a small spanner, hand tight isn't good enough. No spanner? An old cavers trick is to use another maillon.

Make sure you update the Google Doc, and you can help the process even if you don't have the rings by flagging up routes which need them.

Finally, I have a small amount of spare rings and low stretch rope which might be useful for routes with tree belays/lower offs. The same process applies, flag up a route if you do it and it needs the belay sorting, likewise you can pm me if you plan on doing a flagged route and are happy to spend time fixing the belay.

[ashtond6]

Good stuff, I'd be happy to help. Planning on spending lots of time there this summer

Won't let me update the document on my phone but:

IMO the darl/countdown belay bolts are old rusty and horrendous and an accident waiting to happen

Mind of the turbot/man who fell to earth belay bolts are in great condition

[kc]

On the most part these are not a welcome sight down Chee dale. It seems to go against the efforts that have been made to reduce the visual impact of fixed gear. You could get away with using them on route tops, out of sight in the trees etc.
Worn down lower offs are mainly a symptom of direct top ropping by "Punters" on easy angle low grade routes. This has mostly been concentrated to Max wall. The majority of the other crags are frequented by more experienced folk that top rope on draws or lead.
Yes put them on something like Clarion call belay that is popular, out of sight from the path and has old crabs on plate hangers.

But really we should spend more effort replacing all fixed chains and crabs with a proper pair of lower off bolts. We even have the gear, lots of it waiting, sat there in my garage tripping me over.
Oh but that won't happen so just do what's easy and worsen are relationship with the wildlife trust even more.

[dave]

You could get away with using them on route tops, out of sight in the trees etc.

Isn't that exactly what is being proposed?

[kc]

No that is not how it reads and many of the routes listed are in full view.

[Duncan campbell]

Is a ring and a maillon really that much more visually obtrusive than 2 bolts at the top of a line of bolts with a load of chalk dotted around?

[tomtom]

You could get away with using them on route tops, out of sight in the trees etc.

Isn't that exactly what is being proposed?

Exactly..

Lower off's down the Dale are a bit of a mixed bag, so the BMC have managed to obtain a supply of stainless steel maillons and rings which can be retro-fitted to existing good belay bolts. The plan here is to help make lowering off safe and easy, whilst saving wear and tear on the bolts themselves (saving a lot of work and expense in the longer term). It's a system which has worked extremely well where it has been used before (Upper Pen Trwyn) and is less visually intrusive than a chain belay.

What's needed is people to check over belays and if they think they are needed, fit the parts. This can be done in the course of climbing a route as per normal. Areas which have been flagged as potentially needing these the most are the Embankment and the Cornice. Peak Area Chair, Rob Greenwood has helped put together a  Google doc which can be used to keep a record, starting with the most climbed routes according to the other channels logbook database.

Some of these routes might not have lower off's, or share them, and there's probably some really good routes which aren't on the list - I'm happy for the more knowledgeable to make changes to the list so I've left it open for editing.

How's this going to work then? We can have a stash of rings which people can PM me to get hold of, but it might help if folks who go down the Dale a lot took some with them to either fit themselves, or hand out to other people down there. PM me if you fit the bill.

Make sure you update the Google Doc, and you can help the process even if you don't have the rings by flagging up routes which need them.

Finally, I have a small amount of spare rings and low stretch rope which might be useful for routes with tree belays/lower offs. The same process applies, flag up a route if you do it and it needs the belay sorting, likewise you can pm me if you plan on doing a flagged route and are happy to spend time fixing the belay.

Have you read a different post KC? It seems - erm - like the word belay appears quite often in the post...

No that is not how it reads and many of the routes listed are in full view.

.....

[bigironhorse]

Seems like a sensible idea on the whole.

IMO the darl/countdown belay bolts are old rusty and horrendous and an accident waiting to happen

I also seem to remember the countdown lower off being pretty worrying.

[petejh]

On the most part these are not a welcome sight down Chee dale. It seems to go against the efforts that have been made to reduce the visual impact of fixed gear. You could get away with using them on route tops, out of sight in the trees etc.
.....
But really we should spend more effort replacing all fixed chains and crabs with a proper pair of lower off bolts. We even have the gear, lots of it waiting, sat there in my garage tripping me over.
Oh but that won't happen so just do what's easy and worsen are relationship with the wildlife trust even more.

Maillons/rings are fitted all over N.Wales lime and provide the least visually intrusive method of creating a lower-off from two bolts that I can think of - far tidier than chain, rope, krabs or purpose-made lower-offs.

Just make sure you use lots of loctite - there's an issue with them being stolen here, fuck knows why.

[danm]

No that is not how it reads and many of the routes listed are in full view.

Your concerns are justified Kristian, we do have to tread carefully in the Dale. Blame the way I worded my OP for any misconceptions - I don't think I emphasised enough why the Google Doc of route names was left open to edit. The current list is the most popular routes. Not all of them will need rings, and for some it will be inappropriate because of visibility. The list is set up so people can flag routes which need new bolts but don't need/want rings. Some routes will need removing from the list completely. It's the immense knowledge of the area of people like yourself that we're relying on to make sure this gets done properly, one of the reasons I'm not advertising this on any other channel.

The argument about wear being caused by top roping punters is a very real one in many places, but not so much in Cheedale. The problem here is that conditions and the thinnish grade spread combined with its popularity (I couldn't believe how many people would be down the Cornice mid-week every time I went last year) focus usage on a few routes. Many have already got a motley collection of leaver biners and other crap in-situ on the belays.

Bare belay bolts may be necessary in sensitive/visible areas, but I think these rings, if we can get away with placing them without causing undue fuss, are much more sustainable and may well save the much greater intrusion of re-drilling worn belays in the near to medium future. All the belays at the Embankment had to be replaced last year for example - we want to avoid having to do it again if possible. So please, edit the list, make comments and suggestions so that we do the best possible job for Cheedale.

As I've already heard of 2 routes which need new belays (Darl and The Sissy) I'll run a bolting workshop for those who've already expressed an interest in sorting these out, which will be open for anyone wanting to get involved/refresh their knowledge.

[Wood FT]

This would be great for the cornice 7s and Max Wall routes as said above.

As an aside - it would be good to get the re-equipping thread going again
(http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24464.25.html)

There was some good momentum last few years but there are still lots left from KC's list. Another bolt workshop would be great Dan!

[kc]

It's all just talk and don't try to say other wise. There's been two workshops so far that has resulted in only a handful of completed routes, about a days worth or less of what Gary would do.

The Sissy has a shared lower off with Zeke as the rock above is unsuitable.
Gary replaced some anchors on a few of the max wall routes, not sure if anything was done on the embankment.
If you were ever in the unfortunate position to walk down the dale with the trust warden telling you that they were incredibly unhappy with the sight of the bolts asking whether they could be painted or removed, then you would not be so quick to stir things up. Walk along the track on a sunny day and two tier glows like a diamond encrusted dart board.
On the other hand I was asked about installing lower offs on Chee tor as they disapprove of climbers at the top using trees. Can't win!

The point I am trying to make is the landowners already disapprove of being able to see a single bolt down there, so "any"  bolt they can see should have as little visual impact as possible. That means no attachments at all. Comprenda! or risk getting the place band!

I am not saying don't use these rings, but only were they can't be easily seen. The Peak bolt fund has the necessary equipment aready for all other lower offs.

Even on the most popular routes a threadable bolt should last for ages when used properly.

[Wood FT]

It's all just talk and don't try to say other wise. There's been two workshops so far that has resulted in only a handful of completed routes, about a days worth or less of what Gary would do.

PM'd you 

[Johnny Brown]

Painting sounds like a good idea, just a matt grey colour so they don't catch the sun, easily done before installation?

[Wood FT]

Fiend could paint them? Would be like a base phase for painting warhammer figurines

[danm]

This thread finally started getting somewhere. I'll trial some grey spray paint. Guy, your PM didn't arrive, maybe the forum email is broken? FB me or chat in the pub about it.

[Wood FT]

This thread finally started getting somewhere. I'll trial some grey spray paint. Guy, your PM didn't arrive, maybe the forum email is broken? FB me or chat in the pub about it.

I've messaged KC, Dan

[Johnny Brown]

Happy to volunteer time or facilities for painting if needed. Our floor at work is large and grey so ideal.

[highrepute]

It'll wear off pretty quickly I'd guess.

[Paul B]

It'll wear off pretty quickly I'd guess.

I'd reckon so; it'll be difficult to get a decent key / adherence without going beyond a spray can (IMO).

[nai]

Surely the paint would come off the ring first time it's used which would be straight after fitting.

[tomtom]

Surely the paint would come off the ring first time it's used which would be straight after fitting.

I think some of it would stick around for a while.. Can they be anodised (wrong process for steel I suspect) or something similar to take the shine off?

Ah.. More here.

http://www.pfonline.com/blog/post/plating-qa-can-you-color-stainless-steel

[ashtond6]

As I've already heard of 2 routes which need new belays (Darl and The Sissy) I'll run a bolting workshop for those who've already expressed an interest in sorting these out, which will be open for anyone wanting to get involved/refresh their knowledge.

kc - thanks for the info, I didn't realize they had requested some bolts come out. How do you think we should proceed?

I'd be interested in the workshop.

Just so you know, I raised this with Gibson a few months back when he did Max Wall & he said he would add Darl/Countdown to his list.

[AlistairB]

Whilst we're all talking about this kind of thing, does anyone have any good suggestions for what to do with the WCJ Cornice lower-offs? I'm thinking in particular about Brachiation, Free Monster and Rumble. I really wanted to do something about this last summer (sorry KC for being one of those guys) but I couldn't come up with a decent solution so didn't do anything.

At present people generally jump off the top and use various in-situ crap to avoid leaving gear. Obviously it'd be better visually and safety-wise if we weren't relying on mystery in-situ gear. The argument against proper lower-offs at the end of the routes is that you'd be running a rope pretty harshly over the lip of the final roof. You could of course extend them over the lip with chain but then we're back at visually intrusive.

I kind of feel like it'd be a rare situation where equipping the top 2 bolts before the last roof with proper perma-drawers would be the lesser of all evils but I know that word tends to get a pretty negative response.

Any thoughts on a good solution? I still want to sort this out as I'm very attached to the crag. The current single rusty top bolt on Rumble for example does somewhat spoil the experience.

[kc]

At WCJ cornice what is needed is a single bolt at the official/natural finish below poor rock and grass etc.
You can sit on this bolt and enjoy your victory and gather your self together. Nothing should be left on this bolt. You can now jump/climb down to a  threadable bolt below the roof. This is easily done for some of the routes but the big scary ones can have a reverse dogging bolt. I have sometimes just used a dirty old hanger for this very purpose. It can even be positioned in a way that makes it difficult to clip on the lead so anybody with an ounce of intelligence will know what it's for.
So you just lower off the penultimate bolt that would ideally be a resin or the new threadable hangers. If it's a good bolt in good rock then just the one will do no need to have a double bolt belay is there?

[kc]

I painted the bolts on mecca before they went in to a dull grey. The crabs will chip the paint off on the inside but most of the visible surface has retained the paint. Plate hangers are the ones that shine the most so that is why we use the bolt product welded bar hangers along with resin bolts. As long as you don't go attaching daft ornaments to them I don't thing there's alot of point in trying to paint them.

[Paul B]

Any thoughts on a good solution? I still want to sort this out as I'm very attached to the crag. The current single rusty top bolt on Rumble for example does somewhat spoil the experience.

I too was keen to sort things out at the top here but after discussing matters at the time with Henry F decided better of it. Is there less being shouted at these days when climbing there?

Bolts/lower offs around the final lip don't work (even if the rock is good enough). I found this out trying to get down off the direct on Monster, I didn't budge an inch; you're left with the imperfect jumping/down climbing scenario as KC suggests.

Often in the RRG they leave huge hanging chains at similar looking crags, it's not pretty at all!

[ashtond6]

I think the odd one at wcj cornice works, it's also almost a novelty

However, I don't think this is a reasonable option for all the peak routes in cheedale and the tor

However I don't know a better option at this time other than 2 rings. What about 2 glue ins?

Or something more radical like max wall being stripped to protect the rest of the dale?

[SEDur]

Or something more radical like max wall being stripped to protect the rest of the dale?

Would a couple afternoons with an angle grinder only cause more problems?

Surely the best solution is continual regeneration of routes over a very long period of time, implementing nice dull looking glue in bolts that you can reach with a clipstick but are high enough to be out of direct view (though this may be of limited practicality)?

[Johnny Brown]

I too was keen to sort things out at the top here but after discussing matters at the time with Henry F decided better of it. Is there less being shouted at these days when climbing there?

Re: WCJ Cornice, it has been confirmed with the PDNPA to lie on CRoW land, and the bailiff has been informed. So, no, there should be no being shouting at. However using a power drill is always going to be sensitive - stick to quiet times, limit your drilling to an absolute minimum, be prepared to wait until any passers by are out of earshot.

Often in the RRG they leave huge hanging chains at similar looking crags, it's not pretty at all!

Semi-serious suggestion - how about something like an 18" chain covered with plastic ivy?

[AlistairB]

At WCJ cornice what is needed is a single bolt at the official/natural finish below poor rock and grass etc.
You can sit on this bolt and enjoy your victory and gather your self together. Nothing should be left on this bolt. You can now jump/climb down to a  threadable bolt below the roof. This is easily done for some of the routes but the big scary ones can have a reverse dogging bolt. I have sometimes just used a dirty old hanger for this very purpose. It can even be positioned in a way that makes it difficult to clip on the lead so anybody with an ounce of intelligence will know what it's for.
So you just lower off the penultimate bolt that would ideally be a resin or the new threadable hangers. If it's a good bolt in good rock then just the one will do no need to have a double bolt belay is there?

This sounds good to me. My only slight concern is that the threadable bolts need to not just jam the rope on another lip, I'll have a look if the crag ever dries this year!

I too was keen to sort things out at the top here but after discussing matters at the time with Henry F decided better of it. Is there less being shouted at these days when climbing there?

Re: WCJ Cornice, it has been confirmed with the PDNPA to lie on CRoW land, and the bailiff has been informed. So, no, there should be no being shouting at. However using a power drill is always going to be sensitive - stick to quiet times, limit your drilling to an absolute minimum, be prepared to wait until any passers by are out of earshot.

I was there quite a bit last year and after we set in motion the CRoW thing there was no hassle anymore. I agree that any drilling wants to be done discretely regardless though.

[Wood FT]

I too was keen to sort things out at the top here but after discussing matters at the time with Henry F decided better of it. Is there less being shouted at these days when climbing there?

Re: WCJ Cornice, it has been confirmed with the PDNPA to lie on CRoW land, and the bailiff has been informed. So, no, there should be no being shouting at. However using a power drill is always going to be sensitive - stick to quiet times, limit your drilling to an absolute minimum, be prepared to wait until any passers by are out of earshot.

Often in the RRG they leave huge hanging chains at similar looking crags, it's not pretty at all!

Semi-serious suggestion - how about something like an 18" chain covered with plastic ivy?

we could disguise the bolts as mushrooms


I actually think the ivy thing is a good idea

[Duncan campbell]

I too was keen to sort things out at the top here but after discussing matters at the time with Henry F decided better of it. Is there less being shouted at these days when climbing there?

Re: WCJ Cornice, it has been confirmed with the PDNPA to lie on CRoW land, and the bailiff has been informed. So, no, there should be no being shouting at. However using a power drill is always going to be sensitive - stick to quiet times, limit your drilling to an absolute minimum, be prepared to wait until any passers by are out of earshot.

Often in the RRG they leave huge hanging chains at similar looking crags, it's not pretty at all!

Semi-serious suggestion - how about something like an 18" chain covered with plastic ivy?

we could disguise the bolts as mushrooms


I actually think the ivy thing is a good idea

If you're gonna start doing this sort of thing at least disguise it with something cool like a snake

[dave]

Just tie a sprig of plastic ivy to each bolt.

[Wood FT]

Just tie a sprig of plastic ivy to each bolt.

Well onsight

[lagerstarfish]

cammo duct tape?

[kc]

This sounds good to me. My only slight concern is that the threadable bolts need to not just jam the rope on another lip, I'll have a look if the crag ever dries this year!

It should not be a problem. You could even put the lower off in the roof to give a bit of clearance.
I dont think you have to worry too much about discussing bolts over there. Just remove all the crabs and insitu draws.

whilst on the subject of the Cornice, there are a collection of easier routes on the left that were initially bolted by persons unknown. They were then quickly climbed by Zippy but he did not invest any time in them. So we now have a set of oddly bolted, non stainless routes, some with contrived loose starts.
Would be good if someone could sort these out as they could be quite good. 

[Paul B]

Nice work with the CRoW stuff!

Those chains have other issues in that the rock around the bolts seems to get quite damaged. I'm not sure why, perhaps strong winds (and it is softer)?

Short ones in the roof might be the best option if you were to go down this line but then again why would that be better than just bolts as KC suggests?

[tomtom]

Distract all attention from the bolted areas by resin bolting a cheery wind chime high up and far out of reach on a chossy unused nearby buttress....