[quejada]

Hi there, a question for those diet gurus out there. I think the title is self-explanatory, but what people think is the best food to have after a deadhangs session on the fingerboard? As far as I was told, after a hard session at the wall, particularly if you train strength and power, the ideal meal contains lots of proteins and carbs, to make up for those burned and consumed from the muscles during hard training. But does this hold true also for deadhangs training, where you are not really working out your muscles as much as your finger tendons? or am I getting it wrong?
thanks
q

[petejh]

Like you say, for a workout where you significantly deplete muscle glycogen the current dogma science is a snack immediately following the workout, with a carbs to protein ratio of 3-4:1.

Exactly what food is probably not that important. The carb:protein ratio and taking it within the 'sweet spot' immediately following a workout are, allegedly, more important than exactly what you eat.

How much to eat depends on the intensity and how long the workout was. There are rough guidelines you can search.
It's only a small snack - so roughly 30-40g of carbs and 10g of protein from whichever combo of food/liquid you prefer.

Then a meal within 1.5-3 hours.

As for a deadhang sesh - where you might not be burning up as much muscle glycogen as for a hard bouldering/campussing sesh - I'd follow the same guideline ratio and consume it immediately after the workout, but I'd have a smaller snack. 15-20g carbs/5g protein.

http://df5v22780xplq.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/08-Endurance-Training-Read-Accelerate-Your-Recovery-4-to-1-Carb-to-Protein-Ratio.pdf

[quejada]

thanks petejh, this seems a very 'scientific' answer...

[webbo]

Where as my unscientific answer would be. It depends on the time of day, if train across lunch time. I will try and just eat fruit or failing that white toast and butter. If I do it later in the afternoon, I hope this missus is on one her off diet days and comes home with pizza, chips and wine.
I probably should mention due being incapacitated I spend days trying not to eat but fantasing about food.

[quejada]

hey petejh, I just finished reading the article you linked at, it's really interesting. have you got some suggestions for snacks or food combination that gives that 4:1 ratio that is recommend? in the article they give this example, which I am not particularly too excited about (don't like butter): 1/4 cup of nut butter with 3/4 cup of apple and banana slices
many thanks
q

[quejada]

pizza, chips and wine.

what??. if you try that in Italy, where I come from, you might end up being shot...

[abarro81]

Smash in a banana and a protein shake. I'd up the protein ratio compared to Pete's article since we're not enduro training (unless you're smashing out loads of repeaters, in which case 2 bananas and a protein shake should do the trick!)

[Muenchener]

Surely most of the guidelines are talking about people who have depleted the glycogen in ~20kgs of muscle in a deadlift/squat session. Versus ~2kgs of forearms.

[jwi]

Surely most of the guidelines are talking about people who have depleted the glycogen in ~20kgs of muscle in a deadlift/squat session. Versus ~2kgs of forearms.

^This. A long, hard, fingerboard session might burn as much as, what, 50 kcal? That's like half a banana or 50 g of rice. It seems ridiculous to worry about this compared to other nutritional concerns.

[BicepsMou]

Surely most of the guidelines are talking about people who have depleted the glycogen in ~20kgs of muscle in a deadlift/squat session. Versus ~2kgs of forearms.

+1

And adding some personal experimentation with e.g. whey protein I can tell that at least for me, what I eat, as opposed to what I drink :-) post finger boarding is by far the least relevant (=non measurable) factor for my finger strength progress.

I know, n=1 / anecdotal evidence ...

[SA Chris]

1/4 cup of nut butter with 3/4 cup of apple and banana slices

I expect they mean peanut butter, not the dairy stuff?

Smoothies made with frozen banana slices and peanut butter are apparently quite nice if you like peanut butter. Sadly I don't.

[cheque]

nut butter

 

[petejh]

Surely most of the guidelines are talking about people who have depleted the glycogen in ~20kgs of muscle in a deadlift/squat session. Versus ~2kgs of forearms.

Well yes. But we're climbers not runners/weightlifters, and tired forearms are tired forearms - if having tired forearm muscles reduces the effectiveness of your next climbing workout/climbing day at the crag then you can try to do something about it. You can try to ensure the glycogen stores in that little muscle are replaced as soon as possible following workouts/climbing days. The principle of replacing glycogen is the same in a forearm or a thigh, 2 kg or 20.


I agree that you probably don't need to be concerned about refuel much/at all immediately after a typical deadhang sesh. But after an PE sesh (insert your own interpretation of intensity) - I think you defo should try to replace the used glycogen asap if you want to follow an efficient schedule rather than waiting around longer than you 'need' to be to feel on good form again.

[quejada]

lots of interesting ideas and points of view...
I'll see how I get on with this 4:1 (or 4:2 as somebody suggested) carbs/prot ratio diet after training, tailoring it down to my needs and to the amount of workout I actually manage to squeeze in each session...
 

[Reprobate_Rob]

Just nail a chocolate Yazoo.

3:1 ratio of carbs to protein.
50p a dose.
Doesn't taste like ass.

[quejada]

that sound like a great idea! i'll check it out!
 

[webbo]

pizza, chips and wine.

what??. if you try that in Italy, where I come from, you might end up being shot...

I sure that I saw someone eating Pizza and chips in Sassofortino when I was there. Not me of course when in Rome etc.
They were probably German.

[Muesli]

Fried Black pudding. (on toast if you want carbs) 


High Protein, high fat, low sugar....surely the next media 'super food' to be raved about in the sunday supplements.

[SA Chris]

It was raved about as a superfood at beginning of year?

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=black%20pudding%20super%20food

Nom.

[Jim]

salt and pepper ribs every time. If you've managed to motivate yourself to do such a boring thing then you surely deserve a treat

[moose]

For overall diet plans, this looks like the one... "eat like The Rock".  A healthful 500g of protein a day, including a tidy 1kg of cod. You'll just need to squeeze in the fingerboard session amidst 3hrs of cardio and weights and cooking 7 meals everyday.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rock-dwayne-johnson-diet

[36chambers]

For overall diet plans, this looks like the one... "eat like The Rock".  A healthful 500g of protein a day, including a tidy 1kg of cod. You'll just need to squeeze in the fingerboard session amidst 3hrs of cardio and weights and cooking 7 meals everyday.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rock-dwayne-johnson-diet

and steroids, don't forget the steroids

[rodma]

Haggis

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[petejh]

In total, that’s about five hours a day spent prepping food, eating food and working out. I’ve checked with my sources, and I’ve learned that there are only 24 hours in a day, so this was a massive time commitment.

Sauce?

[BicepsMou]

Sauce?

Mint sauce!
Wild boar always cooked and in mint sauce... 

[Fultonius]

Just nail a chocolate Yazoo.

3:1 ratio of carbs to protein.
50p a dose.
Doesn't taste like ass.

Shame about the horrific sugar levels...

[bedrock]

Home made recovery shake:
2 tbs green and blacks cocoa powder
1tbs sugar
400ml milk

Cheap. Easy. Tastes good!


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[monkoffunk]

Home made recovery shake:
2 tbs green and blacks cocoa powder
1tbs sugar
400ml milk

You could mod this but rather than refined sugar and milk I tend to go
125ml pot natural yoghurt
Small banana
Heaped teaspoon raw cacao powder
Scoop protein
Tea spoon chia seeds (prob not doing much...)
Water to top up

That was for recovery post days out in font, and seemed to work nicely! Prob more than required protein in there for post fingerboard, but I prefer it to added sugar.

[blacky]

Kit-kat. Or a fudge after weighted hangs.

[duncan]

Here in N.London we eat smoked salmon sandwichs, salt-beef bagels or tuna sushi for that post-workout 1:4 protein:carbohydrate snack!

In truth I've barely fingerboarded and never felt the need for anything in particular after the micro sessions I've done.

After 600m on the autobelay, chilled chocolate milk tastes great and has that authentic Yosemite vibe.

[Reprobate_Rob]

Just nail a chocolate Yazoo.

3:1 ratio of carbs to protein.
50p a dose.
Doesn't taste like ass.

Shame about the horrific sugar levels...

No, it's not. That what provides the carbs in the 3:1 ratio and replaces blood sugar levels after doing some exercise.
If you're that fucking set on demonising sugar just nail a pint of skimmed milk for your protein and wander round in a daze all afternoon with low blood sugar.
Or just drink some water. That must be good for you - it's got fuck-all in it

[JohnM]

Eat some good quality wood chip.  All wood types are surprisingly hard to masticate but I recommend something with a fine texture such as American tulip wood.

[chris20]

Scotch egg, job done.

[Fultonius]

Just nail a chocolate Yazoo.

3:1 ratio of carbs to protein.
50p a dose.
Doesn't taste like ass.

Shame about the horrific sugar levels...

No, it's not. That what provides the carbs in the 3:1 ratio and replaces blood sugar levels after doing some exercise.
If you're that fucking set on demonising sugar just nail a pint of skimmed milk for your protein and wander round in a daze all afternoon with low blood sugar.
Or just drink some water. That must be good for you - it's got fuck-all in it

Low blood sugar....after a fingerboard set. Mental. 

[Fultonius]

P.S. anyone with good SCIENCE on the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio thing?

The only paper I ever saw didn't control for calories, so the 4:1 carbs to protein lot got 25% more calories than the 4:0 (i.e. no protein) set. No wonder they recovered better...

And this was for endurance athletes, not people dangling around on their fingers.

[slackline]

P.S. anyone with good SCIENCE on the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio thing?

The only paper I ever saw didn't control for calories, so the 4:1 carbs to protein lot got 25% more calories than the 4:0 (i.e. no protein) set. No wonder they recovered better...

And this was for endurance athletes, not people dangling around on their fingers.

No idea if any of these are the one you've seen and I've not read them so no idea if they're "good" SCIENCE but Scholar points to these ...

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0264041031000140527
http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/4/1394.abstract
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.559.3325&rep=rep1&type=pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/11/2198.short

PubMed could be used to find the papers each cites and those that cite the above for anyone interested (I'm not so haven't looked this up).

[Luke Owens]

hey petejh, I just finished reading the article you linked at, it's really interesting. have you got some suggestions for snacks or food combination that gives that 4:1 ratio that is recommend? in the article they give this example, which I am not particularly too excited about (don't like butter): 1/4 cup of nut butter with 3/4 cup of apple and banana slices
many thanks
q

Petejh and I were at the crag once and he pulled out one of them fancy 3:1 ratio bars at the end of the sesh. The baked bean pasty I had had the correct 3:1 ratio. His chemical bar cost about £3 my pasty cost about 50p 

[petejh]

Just nail a chocolate Yazoo.

3:1 ratio of carbs to protein.
50p a dose.
Doesn't taste like ass.

Shame about the horrific sugar levels...

No, it's not. That what provides the carbs in the 3:1 ratio and replaces blood sugar levels after doing some exercise.
If you're that fucking set on demonising sugar just nail a pint of skimmed milk for your protein and wander round in a daze all afternoon with low blood sugar.
Or just drink some water. That must be good for you - it's got fuck-all in it

'Carbs' encompasses Starch and Sugar (and Fiber, not really relevant to recovery meals). You could get your 'carbs' from eating wholegrain foods or starchy veg etc. without touching 'sugar'. Not that anyone's suggesting you should avoid all 'sugar'.

'Sugar':
Glucose
Lactose (milk etc)
Maltose (beer etc)
Fructose
'Sucrose' (comprising 50% glucose / 50% fructose)


Fructose is the one to limit. DYOR research for evidence why, there's plenty out there. Apart from that 'sugar' is good/essential following depletion of muscle glycogen or intensive mental work - just not all the time i.e. for office lunch. Something millions of people, to the detriment of their health, seem unable to understand.

[petejh]

Fructose
Fructose is a sugar found naturally in many fruits and vegetables, and added to various beverages such as soda and fruit-flavored drinks. However, it is very different from other sugars because it has a different metabolic pathway and is not the preferred energy source for muscles or the brain. Fructose is only metabolized in the liver and relies on fructokinase to initiate metabolism. It is also more lipogenic, or fat-producing, than glucose. Unlike glucose, too, it does not cause insulin to be released or stimulate production of leptin, a key hormone for regulating energy intake and expenditure. These factors raise concerns about chronically high intakes of dietary fructose, because it appears to behave more like fat in the body than like other carbohydrates.

Sucrose
Sucrose is commonly known as table sugar, and is obtained from sugar cane or sugar beets. Fruits and vegetables also naturally contain sucrose. When sucrose is consumed, the enzyme beta-fructosidase separates sucrose into its individual sugar units of glucose and fructose. Both sugars are then taken up by their specific transport mechanisms. The body responds to the glucose content of the meal in its usual manner; however, fructose uptake occurs at the same time. The body will use glucose as its main energy source and the excess energy from fructose, if not needed, will be poured into fat synthesis, which is stimulated by the insulin released in response to glucose.

Glucose
The most important monosaccharide is glucose, the body’s preferred energy source. Glucose is also called blood sugar, as it circulates in the blood, and relies on the enzymes glucokinase or hexokinase to initiate metabolism. Your body processes most carbohydrates you eat into glucose, either to be used immediately for energy or to be stored in muscle cells or the liver as glycogen for later use. Unlike fructose, insulin is secreted primarily in response to elevated blood concentrations of glucose, and insulin facilitates the entry of glucose into cells.

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/difference-between-sucrose-glucose-fructose-8704.html

[Reprobate_Rob]

Thanks for the clarification there Pete. I'm not unaware of the 16 pages of sugar-SCIENCE that has happened on the other thread though 
Suffice to say I don't live off chocolate milkshake alone. I also do some exercise other than fingerboarding.
I am merely suggesting, as thousands of athletes, professional and part-time, endurance and power based, have been saying for years - that chocolate milkshake makes a good post-workout recovery drink. It's cheap, convenient, readily available and has this magical, mystical carb:protein ratio (about which I can quote no scientific evidence).

And I don't know about you Fultonius, but I tend to do more than one set in a fingerboard session 

[petejh]

Thanks for the clarification there Pete. I'm not unaware of the 16 pages of sugar-SCIENCE that has happened on the other thread though 
Suffice to say I don't live off chocolate milkshake alone. I also do some exercise other than fingerboarding.
I am merely suggesting, as thousands of athletes, professional and part-time, endurance and power based, have been saying for years - that chocolate milkshake makes a good post-workout recovery drink.

And I don't know about you Fultonius, but I tend to do more than one set in a fingerboard session 

I don't think anyone's arguing choccy milk isn't sufficient for a post workout carb/protein hit, are they?

Fultonius mentioned the sugar content which prompted you to go off on one about how essential sugar is.

It's cheap, convenient, readily available and has this magical, mystical carb:protein ratio (about which I can quote no scientific evidence).

It always makes me laugh when people put in asides like this - the implication being that because you aren't familiar with something means that the evidence for it must be somewhat lacking.

Try doing some research, there's plenty of scientific research around the subject - I'd HLMGTFY it but, to quote Stewart Lee, it'd be like playing classical music to a dog 

[Reprobate_Rob]

You've missed my point entirely Pete. I'm not suggesting there's no evidence, but Fultonius asked so I was pointing out I didn't have any. I'm quite sure there's plenty out there, but like that dog you mention, I've got better things to do with my time than research sugar and listen to classical music.

[monkoffunk]

Post workout recovery sugar is recognised to be beneficial for depleting glycogen stores. You won't get low blood sugar after a fingerboard session, or pretty much any training session. Even starving yourself won't do it. You would die quickly without food if that happened, and actually you last for ages; dieing when your protein is so depleted that your heart stops. I've tested the blood sugar of some muslim friends late in the day during ramadan, and it was the same as mine. Would stay similar for days and days.

That aside, from a recovery perspective I don't see the point in added sugar, or necking anything with loads of refined sugar pre, during or post a workout. There is plenty of easily accessible sugar in loads of things, particularly fruit, also has the added benefit of some more complex carbs and plenty of other nutrients. That would totally sort you out. Really the only situation I can think of when you'd want to spike your blood sugar is when you are an insulin dependant diabetic having a hypo. Even then, the one type 1 diabetic I know personally carries apples around with her which does the job.

Instinctively (not read any studies) the ratios should probably be taken with a massive pinch of salt. If you go a bit overboard on the protein say, you'll just use it for energy, excrete it or ultimately turn it to fat. Likewise with the sugar. In terms of muscle recovery that's all irrelevant.

[TheTwig]

Tofu and some potatoes, with olive oil based curry sauce, you heard it here first  (I'm vegan)