[Will Hunt]

Did anybody see Trevor Phillip's documentary last night? A good argument, I thought, for where we liberals went wrong in not tolerating a debate on immigration.
Those students. Fucking hell.

[Fultonius]

Did anybody see Trevor Phillip's documentary last night? A good argument, I thought, for where we liberals went wrong in not tolerating a debate on immigration.
Those students. Fucking hell.

Yeah, I saw it from about 10 mins before the students...I'm surprised they've gone so far!  I have been having a debate with a friend of my girlfriend who is an outspoken "freedom of speech" advocate about "no-platforming". I'm still not sure where the line should sit between perceived censorship on the basis of not causing undue offence and out-and-out inciting of racial/religious hatred. But as you say...those students....sheesh!

Did you notice how they didn't seem to want to engage the guy who was clearly thinking that banning Pocahontas costumes was ludicrous...they just shut him down. I do think there might be a growing problem with people like those students not equipping themselves with the skills to debate such issues.

[tomtom]

Well they won't have time to entertain such thoughts when they're all enrolled on 2 year degrees..

[Fultonius]

Well they won't have time to entertain such thoughts when they're all enrolled on 2 year degrees..

Is it in any way cynical to suggest that 2 years degrees are purely cashflow related? I.e. £27k per student every 2 years instead of £27k over 3?

The more I see the way the English Higher Education system going, the more strongly I feel that it should remain free as it's better to have a well educated, debt free society that pays a little more tax, than a generation of debt-ridden youngsters who join the rat race to pay down loans.

[tomtom]

OK - mods may want to split this here to 2 year HE debate or something..

2 year degrees has been on the cards as long as I've been lecturing. In the late 90's early 00's most Universities moved to semesters (rather than terms) which could be seen as a pre-cursor.

EG. S1 Oct > Jan, S2 Jan > June, S3 July > Sept etc...

This is also used in most 1 year masters courses - with teaching in S1 and S2 and Project/dissertation in S3 etc.. As long as degrees were heavily subsidised by they govt (cue debate about subsidy and its level - but ignoring that for now..) then in my view it was fairly easy for Universities to stick to the 3 year model. Now the funding is coming mostly from the students (via loans the have to take) there is a switch in the relationship whereby we have more of a provider <> client relationship, rather than academic <> student. So, for the same (or possibly less ££) students could ask/demand/wish to do the same course in 2 years rather than 3. I guess what I'm saying is that when the govt payed most of the ££ then the clients voice was smaller...

This - in turn - raises loads of issues.

1. Space/time to learn. For many (*not all) degrees I think people can only learn so fast, and they need time for knowledge - time to to learn, assimilate, research, process and interpret information. Sure you can ram some of it down peoples throats, but I think some, especially attitude to work, only comes with time and experience - as well as with growing older.

2. Research led teaching. Most universities pride themselves that the people teaching students are also engaged in top, world class research - and that this both inspires students and feeds into what they are taught. Our undergraduates are involved in world leading research that our department is carrying out (to greater and lesser degrees - but its there). We (academics) need time to do research - and the summer is when a bulk of this is done. Be this fieldwork, archive work, lab work - whatever. If we have to teach during the summer - this goes.

This will probably lead to a greater polarisation of staff between being a researcher or a teacher. Instead of a bit of both. Its already happening for ££ reasons (teaching academics are cheaper than research academics). For me it makes where I work a bit shitter. For students I think this will lead to a subtle but important de-valuing of the degree. 

3. Another f*cking restructure... we've just had two - this would mean another.. I know, in many other fields you have one every other year - but it doesnt mean more...

4. Devaluing the degree. Not 100% of this - I think its quite possible to assess students on the same playing field - same level for 2 and 3 year courses. Some that do a 2 year course will be better than some doing a 3 year course. But, I think it means 2 yearers will have fewer opportunities and see point 1 above. For some courses (e.g. Geology) the summer is when students go off and do a long mapping project - trapesing the hills mapping outcrops etc.. - this will not be easy in a 3 yearer....

5. All the non academic stuff. Part of going to University is about living away - meeting a huge and DIVERSE range of people - and this experience is spread out over three years. How will it feel/work/be devalued over 2? Those who have been to University here - reflect on how you were at the end of your 1, 2 and 3rd year... how many of those changes were due to lectures, how many were due to growing up and living? How does that work if its squashed into 2 years?

Mild rant over.. we'll see what happens...

[Will Hunt]

5. All the non academic stuff. Part of going to University is about living away - meeting a huge and DIVERSE range of people - and this experience is spread out over three years. How will it feel/work/be devalued over 2? Those who have been to University here - reflect on how you were at the end of your 1, 2 and 3rd year... how many of those changes were due to lectures, how many were due to growing up and living? How does that work if its squashed into 2 years?

Also

What he said. Having led a largely sheltered life, most of the learning I did at University was about growing up. I only really did any academic work in the final year.

[Johnny Brown]

For some courses (e.g. Geology) the summer is when students go off and do a long mapping project - trapesing the hills mapping outcrops etc.. - this will not be easy in a 3 yearer....

The summer I spent mapping Cilan was one of the best of my life. That said, the first semester of my third year was the easiest schedule I've ever been on - a day and a half a week. Compared to A-levels at boarding school it felt like a holiday camp.

[Offwidth]

Those students. Fucking hell.

'Those students' have been around fighting the likes of racism and fascism from extreme left positions since well before you were born. Arguably they have never had so little effect. No Platform only ever succeeded when gutless UK University management closed the meetings on lame health and safety excuses.

[Will Hunt]

Those students. Fucking hell.

'Those students' have been around fighting the likes of racism and fascism from extreme left positions since well before you were born.

Well they haven't because I'm clearly older than them. I was referring to the particular group of students in the documentary who support no platforming and banning various forms of fancy dress on their campus.
Their motivation is to make the Union more accessible to minorites which is laudable. However to try and stamp out any activity that could possibly cause offence is, in my view, over the top.

[Oldmanmatt]

Those students. Fucking hell.

'Those students' have been around fighting the likes of racism and fascism from extreme left positions since well before you were born.

Well they haven't because I'm clearly older than them. I was referring to the particular group of students in the documentary who support no platforming and banning various forms of fancy dress on their campus.
Their motivation is to make the Union more accessible to minorites which is laudable. However to try and stamp out any activity that could possibly cause offence is, in my view, over the top.

God, I've known enough of them over the years. The buzz words change, as does the cause; but essentially they remain the same.
It's almost religious in levels of zeal and blinds them to the irony of their position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfdm]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/01/lords-defeat-government-over-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk-brexit-bill
Oh shit a spanner in the works, going against the will of the people.
How unpatriotic, will they be tried for treason or simply shot at dawn.
Democracy definitely broken.

[dave]

Three cheers for unelected elites.

[i.munro]

Am I getting over cynical or does this look like the result of the following conversation
"Lord1 : We have to do something! Or we'll be included when they start decorating lampposts with politicians next year.
Lord2 : if we actually hold on this up though May will have us all out of a job by summer!
Lord3 : how about this then.... "

[Muesli]

There was one of the upper house (Baroness Meacher) on the radio this morning saying.


That tories in the commons would vote for it on moral grounds "as tories are principled people" ....which made me chuckle.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08hd4ty#play


interview starts at 1:53:30

[Oldmanmatt]

Worth a glance.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/post-2016-world-order-0?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[lagerstarfish]

given that I don't have the skills to built robots and don't have enough resources to arrange the production of robots, my best option is to become a machine

Nibs? any tips?

[tomtom]

Someone's got to maintain the robots?

[Oldmanmatt]

Someone's got to maintain the robots?

They have robots for that...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[tomtom]

Someone's got to maintain the robots?

They have robots for that...

But the maintenance robots need maintaining.. (you can see where this is going...)

[Oldmanmatt]

Someone's got to maintain the robots?

They have robots for that...

But the maintenance robots need maintaining.. (you can see where this is going...)

Yep.

It's Turtles all the way down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Offwidth]

Have any of you visited a car factory recently?  Robots taking manufacturing jobs is a real trend but its incremental not  revolutionary (the big step change already happened. The real protectionist/brexit issue is where we get all our workers from if we reduce migration. Apologies for the cut and paste from a post I made on the other channel but its very pertinent to this:

"I think people are just plain ignorant of what has happened in some sectors of the UK... in Universities non-British citizens now form 28% of academic posts... if you think of the speed this has risen we must be around half of all new appointments. This is accelerating as there is a demographic retirement bulge (with almost all brits) and added financial incentives to go before the early 2020s due to the way our pensions work in the background of austerity pay freezes (my pensionable salary is currently very much more than my actual salary and based on my pay in 2008 to 2010) and the very small proportion of UK citizens doing PhDs. These numbers parallel in other public sector and private sector professional classes (and most of the public sector has the same demographic and pension issues), as an example 25% of doctors in the NHS are non UK citizens. On minimum wage work, seasonal farm workers must be close to 100%; care and hotel work in some parts of the country not far behind. When May promises the british people to control our borders it is either expensive but pointless and meaningless (in terms of numbers changing) or the very unlikely alternative that alongside the extra expense she intends to inflict major economic damage or cripple vital state functions."

[i.munro]

Anecdotally Brexit is already making substantial inroads into the number of EU citizens working in the UK. Most of my friends and colleagues ,with the exception of those approaching retirement and those with children, have either already left or are in the process of leaving the UK. I fail to see how an exodus of young affluent taxpayers can be a good thing.

[Oldmanmatt]

Interesting point.
Strange to think that even if we deny these people residence, we'll still be paying their pensions for years to come.

I love  how badly this this is thought out.
I really love how the idea of "Nationality " is, in reality, largely illusory in the modern world; even as the Nationalists scream their loudest. 


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[jfdm]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/mar/05/martin-rowson-on-philip-hammond-and-the-post-brexit-workforce-cartoon
Beautifully summing up the direction travel at the moment.

"A report in the Sunday Times claimed the budget would be used to build up £60bn in case of turbulence as the UK withdraws from the EU.

Hammond said he saw his role as ensuring “that we have got reserves in the tank, so as we embark on the journey that we will be taking over the next couple of years, we are confident that we have got enough gas in the tank to see us through that journey”.

BTL somebody wrote this
"I was once on a bus that ran out of fuel. A bus company director was aboard who went with the driver to look into the tank. He came back and announced to the passengers that the bus had NOT run out of fuel at all, there was fuel in the tank but because we were going uphill it had all run down to the back.
I think that has happened again."

Unbelievable, 60 billion no sweat.
So where are the reserves coming from? Behind the sofa, ukip donations?
The millionaires cabinet having a personal whip round each time they meet over the next two years?
I can hazard a good guess.

[Oldmanmatt]

A down and dirty overview, but worth a read.
Fuel here in the Bay hit 123p/ltr on Diesel this week and we've just had to renew Energy contracts at work; no chance of fixing them without a hefty increase on the last 24month rates.
How goes things beyond Brizol?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/03/eurozone-economy-overtakes-uk-france-germany-accelerate/