[slackline]

http://thebrexitplan.com/

Beat you to that 

[Will Hunt]

Yes, but the overall who would you vote for polls mean shit when it comes to a GE - because its down to winning seats in constituencies. For Labour to win a GE, they have to convince a significant proportion of those who have voted Tory and UKIP to vote for them....

  but also think that local elections cannot be representative of how people would vote in a general election where people (rightly or wrongly) are more likely to consider who might end up as PM. I'd be genuinely interested to see the opinion polls that Twig cites. I'm happy to believe that Corbyn is more popular than I think he is if there is good quality evidence to support this.

I do think that his support exists primarily in insular bubbles. Friendship groups, students etc who all think the same thing and aren't exposed to views from outside. There is still a huge proportion of the country to whom the word "socialist" is toxic. I think all this can change but it needs to happen gradually. Given the result of the referendum, does anybody really believe that Britain as a whole has an appetite for radical left wing thinking at the moment?! If anything the popular vote has just shown itself to be right-leaning!

[a dense loner]

None of this matters to me all I'm waiting for is omm to come back and trump seankennys aid agency work.

[Will Hunt]

Just to ramble on a bit more, the saying "love is blind" is fairly apt here I think. Die hard Corbyn supporters have deified him to the extent that you get silly tweets like this cropping up.
https://twitter.com/ThisJayThomas/status/748485209721610240?s=09

So if you honestly believe that there are no good people left in the Labour party then why the hell would you support them? One saintly man and an empty front bench does not a government make.

[36chambers]

So if you honestly believe that there are no good people left in the Labour party then why the hell would you support them? One saintly man and an empty front bench does not a government make.

Can you please name some people in the labour party that are good people?

[Will Hunt]

Me and TomTom. Next question.

[36chambers]

Me and TomTom. Next question.

Good discussion. Thanks Will.

[petejh]

None of this matters to me all I'm waiting for is omm to come back and trump seankennys aid agency work.

Giggle.


In other news, it's bad news from the markets - they aren't in turmoil.

[Will Hunt]

I've sat in The Grove in Leeds with Richard Burgon MP. A few of us were playing Irish tunes and he is into that sort of thing (and metal I think?) and knew one of the people I was with. I think he fell asleep in the end. In what conversation we had he struck me as a decent sort.

I'll refrain from citing a list of every Labour MP and their various qualities and shortcomings, but suffice to say I agree with TomTom's thoughts that are somewhere earlier in this thread. That most MPs are there to do a good job, to represent their constituents, and are often strikingly ordinary. They will all have their good points and they will all be in some way compromised by the pragmatic necessities of operating within a parliamentary democracy. Corbyn is no different.

As to your questions posed by PM on Facebook:

1. If Corbyn, was completely wiped from the labour party, without a trace of him every being there, would you still be a labour voter?
I haven't yet voted for Labour in a GE and don't know if I will because I don't know what the political climate will look like at the next GE (Theres-stasi May says she doesn't want a snap election). If a vote was called tomorrow I would vote Labour. I think what you're driving at here is "if he wasn't there to influence that party do you still think you could vote for them". I don't think this question has any relevance because you're asking me to consider a situation that does not exist and can never exist in the future. However, even if he wasn't there it would likely be the best available option.

2. and can you give me a reason to vote Labour other than to "stop the Tory's being in power"?
They offer a centre left option with a realistic chance of being elected. Although having said that, do we really need another reason than "to unseat the Tories"?

[tomtom]

Me and TomTom. Next question.

I'm one of satans minions - and I'm tall. That probably rules me out.

[petejh]

Spot the market carnage post-brexit result   







Oh.
It hasn't happened.
But don't let that stop people indulging their fears on here. Give it time - it's only been a week and there's still plenty of opportunities for things to be really bad.

[tomtom]

While Pete is in raptures, here's some 'rejected' remain posters - those that never where....

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/01/rejected-remain-campaign-posters-revealed-by-ad-agencies

[petejh]

I'm not in raptures. I'm just posting the market indices.

[slackline]

I wonder, could the up-turn after the nose-dive be being influenced by positive speculation that Article 50 won't be invoked, just as speculation that the result would be to Remain saw growth? 

[a dense loner]

I'm actually shocked we managed to crawl out of the sea with most of the posts that have gone on in this thread.

Ha brilliant, there's a different slant on things every time, I wouldn't bother Pete you fucking racist idiot!

[tomtom]

While Pete is disagreeing with everything I say here's an article on how Australia make voting a bit more tasty...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/australian-election-strewth-lets-throw-a-democracysausage-on-the/

[petejh]

That's because most of the things you say need disagreeing with! I can't read any more links today my daily points allowance has been surpassed.

[tomtom]

Thanks for the global judgement Pete. Have a nice life. :D

[Oldmanmatt]

None of this matters to me all I'm waiting for is omm to come back and trump seankennys aid agency work.

I'm the capitalist that flunkies for the rich. I've never voted Labour and think Corbyn is a green socks and sandals kind of guy.
Now, if they come up with a Trudeau; I might switch.
No aid work I'm afraid.
Full CV and refs on application.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[a dense loner]

Now I am disappointed

[SA Chris]

While Pete is disagreeing with everything I say here's an article on how Australia make voting a bit more tasty...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/australian-election-strewth-lets-throw-a-democracysausage-on-the/

Given the time it will take to fill in the ballot paper, you might as well take a snack onto the polling booth with you

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-30/election-2016-preferences-explainer-voting/7556562

[tomtom]

Yes it's huge isn't it! Wonder what their soiled/incorrectly filled in ballot rate is?

[SA Chris]

Must make counting seriously complicated - is that a 1 or a 7??

[Nigel]

Tom Tom – I actually agree that a system of PR with a full spectrum of new political parties has to be the way forward. The simple fact that a hitherto relatively unknown Nationalist party (SNP) are now the 3rd largest in parliament despite ultimately not wanting to be there at all seems to make a mockery of how behind the times the current system is. It would also allow a voice to the rise of the left (ignored for 2 decades or more to the detriment of many) and the 4 million UKIP voters represented by one MP. However unpalatable that seems it is at least fair.

However that’s not where we are. RE the points raised about JC over the last page of replies:

Is he anti-semitic? No. Is this being used as stick to beat him with by his detractors? Of course it is. That much surely is obvious. Is it a problem in the Labour Party which he needs to sort? Who knows, have any of the news outlets actually reported on what the contents of Shami’s report were? All I’ve heard is a confected row about one line in his speech which does not in any way compare Israel to ISIS. All you need to do is actually read the line, or even better the whole speech. But no-one ever does that they just read the (manufactured) headlines. I first read it in The Guardian yesterday headlined as something like “JC Appears to Compare Israel and ISIS”. Clearly inflammatory, and also wrong. This was changed about an hour later to “JC Announces Launch of Anti-Semitism Report Amidst Controversy”. Hmmm I wonder why the backtracking? If you genuinely don’t think there’s a blatant element of the knives being out for him across the entire media then I’m afraid your head is in the sand.

(Off-topic but the fact that JC’s stance on Israel-Palestine is  probably shared by most of the UK public post Op Protective Edge, most of the world’s countries at the UN General Assembly, and will probably be vindicated by history, seems also to be largely ignored.)

RE getting Labour into power, also called “electability”. This is where we get into post-factual politics. Electability in General Elections is only proved by performance in a General Election – and we haven’t had the benefit of this in JC’s case.  Going on what we know, winning other elections – big tick for JC. For example his own constituency for 30+ years, labour leadership by a landslide, several by-elections, 4 mayors of major UK cities, good performance in local elections. The press tried desperately to spin most of the above as somehow failures or divorced from JC. This does not make it true. I’ve no idea of the state of any recent polls I’m afraid so won’t be using that argument, but if you can find any then I’ll be happy to try! Probably don’t mean jack in the current state of flux though.

So the current spectre of “electability” used to denigrate Corbyn is basically a moveable feast of whatever bullshit reason crops up that day. Not bowing low enough to the Queen, not singing the anthem, not wearing a tie, blah blah. Yes I know that GE’s are won by holding your safe seats then convincing the centre ground in a handful of middle England marginals to swing towards you. Maybe the above trivia will make a difference there, in which case I despair. Anyway, most of the press is right wing and will crucify any Labour leader similarly – see the Milliband bacon sandwich affair. We have to rise above that level and I think JC does, which brings us to the crux…

If not him, who? Look, this coup has been plotted since day 1. The lack of JC’s visibility during EU referendum is a smokescreen. You would think that post Brexit the country would be sick of politicians diving into a chaos-creating situation with both feet and no plan, but obviously most of the labour PLP think not. If there is an obvious candidate who can carry the party then where were they last year? Hmm. And where are they now? And what are their policies? I’ll tell you right now they will be a damn sight less socialist than Jeremy’s, and that’s the point – it isn’t about the man, its about his policies. It is the policies they think are unelectable. So what’s their plan? If they can’t bully JC to resign then these self-styled master tacticians with such foresight and obvious empathy with the electorate will have to stand their (yet to be decided) “unity” candidate (or candidates??!!) on a policy platform of who knows what against someone they know from repeated polling they are almost certain to lose comprehensively to for a second time in 9 months. Who by the way has the support of the unions and most of their own Constituancy Labour Parties, including Eagle’s herself. Genius. And these people are the answer are they? On the other hand if they do get what they want and JC resigns and we have a “coronation” then they will alienate a huge proportion of the membership and decimate the party. Basically they have fucked up massively and they know it. You asked earlier if I thought all politicians are Machiavellian by default? Well not on this evidence, Machiavelli would piss himself in his grave to see this particular “plan” in action.

If there is to be a split then fair do’s, it may have to happen. No time for deselections really. Might not a disaster, as I said at the start it will probably have to happen anyway in the long run, and the two parties could still have a grand coalition afterwards in the event of a GE. But on the matter of principle of whether Corbyn sticks up for himself, his policies, and his mandate instead of giving up to an increasingly bullying establishment? Well, I hope he stays. I will join and vote for him.

RE what could happen next week if he does stay – what will Angela “voted for Iraq and against the inquiry” Eagle have to say if she is in a contest with JC when Chilcot comes out?

[erm]

(Off-topic but the fact that JC’s stance on Israel-Palestine is  probably shared by most of the UK public post Op Protective Edge, most of the world’s countries at the UN General Assembly, and will probably be vindicated by history, seems also to be largely ignored.)

This seems a little dubious... If we accept for a moment that I am politically engaged and informed, the fact that I had to look up Op Protective Edge might incline you to think that most other people would too.

Part of the great challenge of the internet echo chambers is that we live in different ones. Most of what you wrote can be found in the pro-Corbyn echo chamber, but not in the echo chamber I live in. I'm not actually saying you are wrong, but if we want to live in a non-post fact world we probable have to strive to climb back out of the echo chambers.

Speaking of echo chambers there is a fair overlap of climate change denial and euro-phobia among senior figures in this country.