[steveri]

On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

I suspect even this may be a generous figure - 45' of effort in a 3h session. I don't know if anyone has any actual numbers - not trying to derail, just wondering out loud what kind of exercise climbing is?

[tomtom]

If I'm time limited - I can be knackered after an hour at the wall. Eg breaking only when I have to rather than want to. I rarely stay more than 2 hours...

[bendavison]

On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

I suspect even this may be a generous figure - 45' of effort in a 3h session. I don't know if anyone has any actual numbers - not trying to derail, just wondering out loud what kind of exercise climbing is?

I agree, it's easy to kill a lot of time with resting! Even the most efficient enduro session probably would be slightly less efficient than a 1:1 work rest ratio, when warm up and rest between sets is taken into account. Low intensity AeroCap being an exception, perhaps.

[rodma]

Yeah I'm interested in what comes up on this. I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?

if you feel that your diet is lacking collagen, why not just make homemade stock/soup?

[duncan]

Good thread and good summary jwi.

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

However, experienced coaches and nutritionist for elite athletes claim ...

The dietary supplementation business turns over $30 billion per year, promoting itself with tactics described as similar to those of the tobacco industry. Professional body-builders receive most of their sponsorship from the industry. Other elite athletes, to a lesser degree, and much of the research, are industry supported. It would be astonishing if received coaching and nutritionist wisdom didn't strongly encourage protein supplement use.

Ondra, who I'm guessing trains as hard as any rock-climber reading this forum, seems to eat 'food, mostly plants' and says he doesn't use protein supplements. 

[lagerstarfish]

I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery.

I've eaten more Greggs sausage rolls than most people and my finger joints are still jelly

[steveri]

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

Funnily enough I got a free sample of a protein jizz gel from Wiggle this morning. 20g of protein for £2 a pop. Looks to be almost exactly the same as a pint of milk, skimmed or otherwise ...even at milkman prices I know which way I'd go.

Wasn't received wisdom that there was some magical quality of chocolate milk for recovery to add in some glycogen? http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/jul/09/secret-powers-chocolate-milk-mo-farah-runners

[Mumra]

So are Duncan are you saying that Whey protein is a industry myth and not worth our time? I'm confused, can you spell it out for us dullards please

[Murph]

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%)....

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) ...

That's an unusually mad assertion, even by the very low standards of diet bollocks on the web. You have reproduced it for illustrative purposes not because you believe it, I hope?

I was quoting some of the extreme positions in both. I don't for a second think all or most of either group believes any such thing....most probably don't give a rat's ass.

[Murph]

And Habrich, didn't mean to miss your intent on the lentils v tuna comparison. But yeah of course no argument with the fact that getting a lot of protein per calorie certainly does give more flexibility under the IIFYM/flexible diet approach.

But this is kind of why a question like "how much protein?" Is such a good one. Let's say the science behind even the 0.8g/kg is an overestimate (it is supposed to include a large safety margin anyway) this could free up those folk who are stuffing themselves with food they don't really want to instead gorge on a nice bowl of plain rice and steamed veg instead

I could go on but appreciate I'm probably in a minority in finding this so fascinating!

[petejh]

I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?

That's my understanding also.

Not just protein - almost everything we eat gets broken down. That's one of the challenges of oral drug delivery, I believe.

Astonishingly for some people, worth also noting that the gut has absolutely no way of knowing whether food it digests is from McD's or lovingly hand-picked from an organic farm ...

Well no, just as your gut doesn't know which drug company produced which antibiotic that was pumped into the cows and chickens that were slaughtered for the 'meat' in the McDs...
...while your lovingly organic example shouldn't contain any antibiotics.

Your anti-west coast hippy stance is admirable but I think I know what any sensible person, given an informed choice, would rather digest.

[Muenchener]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

I've hit 190 at the end of a set of stair climbing intervals. I felt like I was going to die, and I suspect training regularly at that intensity would do more harm than good.

[TheTwig]

http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/the-best-sources-of-protein/

http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-i/
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-ii/
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-iii/

Interesting articles there. I haven't got the time to go through them with a fine-tooth comb but generally what he says seems sensible. On the basis of his articles I tried using Beta-alanine and Citruline-malate before a session of endurancey wall climbing (it seemed to make a big difference). Worth reading 

[petejh]

Beta-Alanine is the shit in my experience, for improving time you can hang on for with a pump (didn't stop me feeling pumped).. Cocentrated beetroot juice also. Good for 'other' things too.


Habrich: yep more of a N.American issue than a UK/Euro one (we just eat horses). I'd be reluctant to eat much meat in N.America unless it was organic.

[webbo]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

I've hit 190 at the end of a set of stair climbing intervals. I felt like I was going to die, and I suspect training regularly at that intensity would do more harm than good.

I have had my heart rate at over 200 cycling in the Alps back in the day. These days I can get up to 180+, there is no way it's goes anywhere near that climbing. I wore my monitor weight training to see how high it went 130s and that was doing a set of heavy squats.

[psychomansam]

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

Funnily enough I got a free sample of a protein jizz gel from Wiggle this morning. 20g of protein for £2 a pop. Looks to be almost exactly the same as a pint of milk, skimmed or otherwise ...even at milkman prices I know which way I'd go.

Wasn't received wisdom that there was some magical quality of chocolate milk for recovery to add in some glycogen? http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/jul/09/secret-powers-chocolate-milk-mo-farah-runners

Skimmed choc milk isn't magical, but does contain the right protein:carb mix needed for athletic recovery, and has been tested and appears to have the same (or better) effect on recovery as fancy protein bollox for x times the price.

Now, I suspect that the extra sugar is less important for climbers in some cases. If you've just done a big wall or been working your route for the last few hours, you'll definitely want to get those glycogen stores topped up. If you've just pulled hard on a board for 30 mins, perhaps not.

If you're eating a banana or other things with sugar in, then you'll get it from that anyway.

It also depends when you want to be recovered for. If you're planning on hitting it again the next day, go for the extra sugar; if you're taking a few days off, then you'll just be aiding belly growth.

When I was running a lot and climbing a fair bit too, I was getting through 4 pints of skimmed milk a day (my main protein source). I'd only bother with the choc after a long run or if I was doing a lot. Rest of the time, bananas etc with the milk. If I was doing a lot of climbing, I would occasionally reinforce my milk with skimmed milk powder (which also made up a large part of my calories while doing a mountain marathon last year).

And one last thing:
Take on protein before exercise.
If you're doing a full day climbing with a  break in the middle, take it on in the middle too.
Then take on a bit more after as well.

I suspect one of the advantages for people like Ondra eating normal food, is that he does the above. Which not only means you don't need to use synthetic stuff to get one giant hit of protein, it also means that protein uptake is more effective.

(On the other hand, if you buy whey, you're subsidising the cheese industry. And cheese fucking rules!)

[Rocksteady]

I quite rate this info from the Australian Institute for Sport:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/basics/protein_-_how_much

"Numerous dietary surveys show that the dietary patterns reported by various groups of athletes provide protein intakes that are well in excess of 2.0 g/kg body mass per day - especially in the case of strength-training athletes. Therefore, there is little scientific justification for special high protein eating strategies for sport."

Table 1: Estimated protein requirements for athletes

Group   Protein intake (g/kg/day)
Sedentary men and women 0.8-1.0
Elite male endurance athletes 1.6
Moderate-intensity endurance athletes (a) 1.2
Recreational endurance athletes (b) 0.8-1.0
Football, power sports 1.4-1.7
Resistance athletes (early training) 1.5-1.7
Resistance athletes (steady state) 1.0-1.2
Female athletes ~15% lower than male athletes

(a) Exercising approximately four to five times per week for 45-60 min
(b) Exercising four to five times per week for 30 min at <55% VO2peak

Source: Burke and Deakin, Clinical Sports Nutrition, 3rd Edition, McGraw-Hill Australia Pty Ltd, 2006

[mark s]

not all protein is the same.
egg protein will knock the protein from lentils out of the ball park