[Fultonius]

Can you get enough protein/fat/carbs for climbing from any reasonable diet, be it vegan or the butifarra diet? Of course! .

This interests me as I'm 90% veggie these days (if you exclude the large spicy chicken kebab I had last night) and I've looked for references to how much protein a climber training 3-4 days a week *actually* needs.

Meat-head weight lifters say you need about 1.5-2g/kg of bodyweight per day and I've seen 1-1.5g/kg mooted for "endurance athletes".  This is not always that easy to achieve as a veggie and even harder as a vegan!!  My daily yoghurt and cheese, and regular eggs adds a fair bit. So do the cans of mackerel after bouldering...

[Fultonius]

Feel free.

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[Oldmanmatt]

I think, it all comes under the heading of "healthy eating" and you'd be better served by trimming the title than splitting the thread. Too much overlap between posts surely?

Having just started my first real "diet" and needing to lose 10-15 kg, I'm finding the entire thread fascinating.

The odd thing I've discovered, is that tracking my calories has shown me that it's very hard to actually reach my (reduced) calorie intake, whilst eating what I consider to be a normal daily menu.
I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't feel like I've changed anything and yet the weight is dropping.

This suggests that I was totally unaware of what I was eating. Mrs OMM is convinced that the primary difference is that I'm not finishing off the kids leftovers and that my weight began to spiral when I went from two kids to four...
Despite training 3-4hrs four times a week.


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[jwi]

This interests me as I'm 90% veggie these days (if you exclude the large spicy chicken kebab I had last night) and I've looked for references to how much protein a climber training 3-4 days a week *actually* needs.

Well... the short answer is: we don't know. By measuring the nitrogen balance in urine the scientific community is fairly confident that 0.8 g protein / kg /day is enough for sedentary people. For athletes it has been harder to find guidelines. This is partly because we aslo loose nitrogen through sweating and partly because there is some indications that certain (but perhaps not all) amino-acids are used as fuel during prolonged exercise. To further muddy the picture, nitrogen balance seems to follow the general principle of homeostasis, meaning that previously untrained individuals will have negative nitrogen balance after starting training but that it will soon go back to normal levels if training continues for a few weeks — even if they eat very little protein...

You get the picture. People who measure things in labs have not figured this one out. Suffice to say that there is no direct evidence that healthy adults engaging in resistance or endurance sport needs more than 0.8 g/kg/day.

However, experienced coaches and nutritionist for elite athletes claim that for hard endurance training  1.2-1.4 g/kg/day is needed. For resistance athletes the consensus seems to be that requirements might be as high has 1.6-1.7 g/kg/day during a hypotrophy phase. (0.9 g/kg/day is recommended for maintaining mass.)

This recommendations for athletes are not based on first principles, but are not likely to change in the short to medium term.
 
Climbers are imho unlikely to be engaged in much hard endurance training or hard resistance training. Well, possibly both for the minuscule muscles in the forearms, and sometimes in hard resistance training for the upper body. Few climbers do much in the way of training for the bigger muscles of the legs. (When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Oh, and by the way. For a complete protein, rice is about as good as any other food (except eggs).

[jwi]

The odd thing I've discovered, is that tracking my calories has shown me that it's very hard to actually reach my (reduced) calorie intake, whilst eating what I consider to be a normal daily menu.
I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't feel like I've changed anything and yet the weight is dropping.

Keeping a food diary and doing daily weigh-ins are among the very few things we know have a positive correlation with weight-loss!

[petejh]

Having just started my first real "diet" and needing to lose 10-15 kg, I'm finding the entire thread fascinating.

A perfect opportunity to keep your calories constant 'up' at around 2000-2500; take note of your average daily grams of sugar in your normal diet and reduce this amount to the bare minimum that a 'typical' western supermarket diet allows; and see what happens energy and weight wise...   

[Murph]

I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't know if this is off topic now or not but 15kgs in three years is 5kgs a year or 100g a week of, presumably, chub. 100g of chub is 900 calories which you could easily exceed by eating one slice of buttered bread a day! Piece of piss in the grand scheme and easily achieved by eating child leftovers...

Good luck on your path.

[Murph]

Great post jwi, a ton of useful stuff in one place. Thanks.

Climbers are imho unlikely to be engaged in much hard endurance training or hard resistance training.

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

[Sasquatch]

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

Maybe, but I'd guess very few do only that and nothing but that for "training".  On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run. 

[TheTwig]

As a mostly vegan I eat fair amounts of firm tofu, tempeh, various 'burgers' (which are delicioius btw, thank god for Waitrose), soy milk, nut butters, home-baked bread etc. I have a big bucket of whey protein I got a while back that I'm nearly at the end of, planning to replace it with some kind of vegan protein when it runs out

I've never worried that I'm not getting enough protein. I make sure (no matter what) I have something to eat straight after climbing, usually a 'big' meal when I get home and then graze every 2 or 3 hours after that. I used to swim insane amounts and I could tell very easily back then if I wasn't getting enough protein as my muscles would just be incredibly achy and not feel like they were recovering. The one case where 'listen to your body' actually works

[jwi]

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

Maybe, but I'd guess very few do only that and nothing but that for "training".  On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

The often quoted 1.2-1.4 g/kg/day is for people who do about 2 hours or more of endurance training (running/cross-country skiing/etc) a day.

[Murph]

per 100g,
cooked lentils  9g 116 calories
tofu 16g protein 145 calories
almonds 21g protein 580 calories

Consuming selected meat and dairy products makes life easier,

per 100g,
greek yoghurt 11g protein 60 calories
canned tuna 26g protein 115 calories
grilled sirloin steak 31g protein 185 calories

I am sure someone will post to tell me that data is simplistic or unreliable, but it is certainly in the right ball-park.

So for lentils and tofu you could hit your 70g target with fewer than 1,000 calories. That sounds plenty protein-dense to me as even a moderately active person is going to be needing substantially more calories than that. So the remainder of the diet could be made up of pretty much anything.

The steak figure is v impressive. It blows the broccoli argument out of water.
For balance against the vegan nuts you could have had cheddar cheese though, 20g per 400 calories or something. But I'm not debating the point.

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

[tomtom]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

TheTwig mentioned aches - are these abs are there any other symptoms of not having enough protein post exercise?

[Oldmanmatt]

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

Joe Blogs: "But I like Pizza"...



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[tomtom]

OMM: but I like my kids left over pizza

[Oldmanmatt]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

TheTwig mentioned aches - are these abs are there any other symptoms of not having enough protein post exercise?

^^^ This.

My problem is, I take the milk in a Machiatto and the Caffeine is killing me...


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[dave]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

Although this is less protein than a single serving of something like a Myprotein Impact Whey, and costs more.  I personally would be gagging half way through a pint of skimmed milk.

[tomtom]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

Although this is less protein than a single serving of something like a Myprotein Impact Whey, and costs more.  I personally would be gagging half way through a pint of skimmed milk.

It's interesting - as give me a pint of skimmed in the morning at home and id say it's a bit grim. But right after exercise it tastes really good. Body - cravings etc..?

They don't sell ready mixed whey at petrol stations either

[dave]

They don't sell ready mixed whey at petrol stations either

Give it time.

[LB1782]

does this seem reasonable:

## Skim milk (pint)

• calories 198
• protein 19g, %cals 39
• sugar 28g, %cals 57
• fat 0.6g, %cals 2.5

##  Vegan protein thing (30g serving)

• calories 120
• protein 25g, %cals 49
• sugar 0.24g, %cals 0.48
• fat 1.65g, %cals 7.5

no idea, apart from those who are intolerant, how bad lactose is supposed to be amongst the sugars.

edit: also, where are the other 42% of the cals in the vegan shake thing supposed to come from? There are only supposed to be 4g of non-sugar carbs in it so its not from them

[nai]

It's interesting - as give me a pint of skimmed in the morning at home and id say it's a bit grim. But right after exercise it tastes really good. Body - cravings etc..?

Protein aside, looks like you're doing the right ting, Tom:

http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/sport-exercise/news/2015/14Apr-Post-workout-rehydration-which-drink-fares-the-best.aspx

[tomtom]

Indeedy. Read in a few places that milk is a good post 'work out' (that always comes with a strange American accent in my head when I write that..) drink.

[Fultonius]

At the risk of sounding like this guy



My usual post climb snack is:

1 x Can Mackerel

125g
17.5g Protein
 5.9g Carbs (Sugar...meh...maybe should find a better brand!)
17.6g fat
255 Calories

PLUS

3 Oatcakes

3g Protein
18g Carbs (no sugar)
5.4g Fat
138 Calories

Total:

20.5g Protein
23.9g Carbs
23g Fat
393 Calories

[/who gives a fuck]   

[Schnell]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

[Schnell]

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

Yeah I'm interested in what comes up on this. I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?