[Sasquatch]

S: Going to head to the cave to work on LWT
S: Rest

6 weeks from the end I'll add in AnPow and drop to 1 sesh or completely drop AnCap?

Is AeroPow to be completely neglected as I know Alex's document highlights this as being quite important regardless of route length?

How did you get on?

[Lund]

From reading the above fairly quickly - and some of this has been said already - I do think you're missing a load of endurance, so I think you're in the right ballpark.

I've done LW, but as someone else said I "conquered by strength rather than fitness" and went as fast as possible.

* Getting pumped on that difficulty of ground = anaerobic fitness
* "Not spending long enough on the rests" translates usually to having crap aerobic fitness - you need the aero to recover on the rests.

The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger).  If you're anything like me, it's the ancap you need.

The problem you have I think is one of time.  Between now and mid-march you have only 10 weeks.  This is not long enough to make significant inroads into your ancap, certainly if you switch to anpow.  It takes a long time for the adaptations to take hold.  From Barrow's PDF:

Aerobic Capacity: 8+ weeks
Anaerobic Capacity: 16+ weeks
Aerobic and Anaerobic Power: 6-8 weeks

You may get some benefits in less time - but I'd not count on it.  In six weeks for example, I've noticed no real gains (only slight ones).

It may be - and I'd be interested in everyone else's thoughts - that actually sacking off the ancap/pow work is a better idea, and going for all out strength, plus a load of aerobic work so you can recover better on the rests if necessary.

[Paul B]

Also, is doing AnCap twice a week OK?

For me, I'd predict feeling fairly fatigued (at the end of that phase) doing Max Strength (board for me) type bouldering followed by Ancap twice a week, I'd have thought the AnCap session would be flawed due to the proceeding activity (1.5 hrs!). Especially so perhaps if your weekend session is effectively long-bouldering?

You seem to like day on day off; I used to like this (and I think it works v. well for pure bouldering) but with energy systems stuff it felt like I was always trying to pack too much into a session / there weren't enough days in the week.

I also forgot to say I didn't see a planned taper in your original programme?

Lund is spot on with the adaption times too.

[Tommy]

I can see loads of people have questions all about the intensity, what it feels like, how much you'd do etc etc. Would it help if I spoke to the mods and arranged a time where I could be on UKB one evening and just answer a load of questions?

Tom

[jwi]

would be fantastic.

[Luke Owens]

The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger).  If you're anything like me, it's the ancap you need.

I imagine it's AnCap too, it's something I've never trained and I'm strong enough to do the moves just no good at sustaining hard climbing.

The problem you have I think is one of time.  Between now and mid-march you have only 10 weeks.  This is not long enough to make significant inroads into your ancap, certainly if you switch to anpow.  It takes a long time for the adaptations to take hold.  From Barrow's PDF:

Aerobic Capacity: 8+ weeks
Anaerobic Capacity: 16+ weeks
Aerobic and Anaerobic Power: 6-8 weeks

You may get some benefits in less time - but I'd not count on it.  In six weeks for example, I've noticed no real gains (only slight ones).

It may be - and I'd be interested in everyone else's thoughts - that actually sacking off the ancap/pow work is a better idea, and going for all out strength, plus a load of aerobic work so you can recover better on the rests if necessary.

Yeah, I'm struggling with what to do and when given the time constraints, adaption times etc.

Interesting point about sacking off the ancap/pow in favor of strength, I'd rather not just strength my way through it if possible but I suppose it's an option! I guess that's the problem I'm having deciding what is best to do/not do.

It's not like I won't be out after the little one is here, it would just be a bonus to get a couple of ticks in before hand, if not I'll just start a longer training plan in Spring/Summer although that will be more geared towards Diamond season.

I also forgot to say I didn't see a planned taper in your original programme?

What would be "Week 11" was going to be a taper week. That would bring me to 21st March. Would have a few weeks then before the little one arrives (unless she's early  ) and fingers crossed Dinbren will be in condition.

Forgot to mention previously that the route at Dinbren I want to do I've actually had 10 sessions on it over the past 2 years, spaced out sessions. I did all the moves quickly but linking them proved difficult. In the last 4 sessions I would fall off about 8 moves in hang on the rope for a minute then climb to the top. It got the better of me and I sacked it off earlier this year as I didn't see any improvement and didn't know how to improve. Would probably have done it if I had stuck at it, but hitting session number 10 had some mental impact on me!

How did you get on?

It's Saturday tomorrow  I'll let you know, I predict I may be too tired to give it my best effort given the AnCap I've done this week. As Paul B said that's 3 long bouldering sessions in a week.

I can see loads of people have questions all about the intensity, what it feels like, how much you'd do etc etc. Would it help if I spoke to the mods and arranged a time where I could be on UKB one evening and just answer a load of questions?

Tom

Tom that would be great. Thanks!

[TheTwig]

I think the one thing that can be gleaned from this and the thread on Mountainproject about 'focusing on fitness' style training is that people really need to be more specific when they are talking about what they are doing, or what they are suggesting to other people.

Just to start with, foot-on campusing could mean anything. Using the big juggy rungs and using the smallest rungs would be using completely different energy systems/intensities. I think most people would assume the exercise is ladders (alternating rungs until at full stretch) but not everybody would know this either.

[a dense loner]

Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.

I propose someone says something along the lines of I want to do a 30 move pinch fest with a shit rest at move 23, what is the quickest way I'm going to do this? Or I'm going on a sport climbing hol where most things are 20m I want to onsight as much as poss what do I do?

[tomtom]

Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.

I agree. Some Dense sense written there...

I really have no idea what the difference cap/pow/an/aero things mean..

[Oldmanmatt]

?

Aero- aerobic
An-  anaerobic
Pow- power
Cap- capacity.

On my phone, but I have a couple diagrams/info graphics that illustrate to energy systems on my pad. I can stick them up later if it would help?
There is a tendency to use slightly different terminology on the forum from standard sports lingo (I'm a level 3 personal trainer, just starting to specialise in rehab.) but it's easily translatable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lund]

Also, don't get me wrong I won't be asking any questions since I'm not remotely interested in routes, could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.

I agree. Some Dense sense written there...

I really have no idea what the difference cap/pow/an/aero things mean..

If you want answers, get a coach

If you want a discussion and to learn something, then that's what all this chit chat is about

[jwi]

Here's a quick translation of a graph I did for a side-project of mine

We tried to explain the difference between Power vs "Capacity" (Work) using an analogy.

[a dense loner]

Were the last few answers directed at me? Get a coach? Or if I want to learn something? My point was that in all these discussions the people that want the help don't know what the people trying to give it are talking about. This has been shown time and time again.

I think it's great that someone like Tommy has offered to do this, what I was saying was the people that will be asking the questions don't have a sports science degree they just want to know what to do, in pretty much laymans terms.

[Doylo]

Getting the snip should help mate.

[tomtom]

Getting the snip should help mate.

Is that why he's down in London?

[a dense loner]

I'm back in Shef now, and British Gas have just left after fixing a 5 month old boiler. Wouldn't have needed it in the big smoke but it's grim up north

[Eddies]

I want to avoid upsetting anyone here, or getting into an argument about systems...

:/

[Doylo]

Getting the snip should help mate.

Is that why he's down in London?

Luke's not in London, I've just seen him on the Orme...

[TheTwig]

I still haven't seen a good explanation why the current strength/power and Arc/endurance and low end and high end PE aren't good descriptions of what's going on 

I guess I get that Pow and Cap are essentially saying a strong but unfit climber or a weak but extremely fit climber. but then the aeropow bit just doesn't make any sense to me! Frustrating because I want to understand all this stuff, as I'm very strong for the route grades I climb, just 'weak' at sustained 15ish move sequences

[abarro81]

As a ballpark if you'd rather do it with that terminology:

Strength = strength
ARC/endurance = aero cap
Short resistance, aka short PE = an cap, an pow (think powered out)
Long resistance aka long PE = aero pow (think forearm popping pump)

If you want to do it that way I'd say that your short resistance should gradually increase in length of circuit/problem used through your training cycle with a corresponding increase in rest times

[Mumra]

Ancap 4 lyfe 

[mrjonathanr]

The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger). 

Musing on this thread noticed this statement Lund... Surely it's the opposite?

Or do you mean a short period of ancap as preparation for 'proper' training?


Stamina is an expression of repetition in relation to maximum output, so shouldn't you first increase the single hardest move you can do and then work on stamina? (Though in reality you mix up sessions with a stronger focus on one or the other depending on where you are in your training regime).

My unscientific approach is:
A few weeks of fitness oriented bouldering going from stamina/ 'aerocap' (long, easy) to power-endurance/ 'anpower' (much shorter, much harder) to be in good nick to start bouldering for strength.
Then lots of strength focused bouldering with some 4x4 type sessions thrown in regularly.
Then more focus on power endurance (4x4 type of training) with less of the powerful bouldering.
Then more pure stamina training with just a few regular 4x4 and strength sessions thrown in for maintenance.
About 4 months of work.

[Lund]

The first question really is whether you need ancap or anpow more - because you need to get the capacity up before training the power (make the bucket bigger before making the pipe to empty it bigger). 

Musing on this thread noticed this statement Lund... Surely it's the opposite?

Stamina is an expression of repetition in relation to maximum output, so shouldn't you first increase the single hardest move you can do and then work on stamina? (Though in reality you mix up sessions with a stronger focus on one or the other depending on where you are in your training regime).

As I understand the terminology, both ancap and anpow relate to the usage of the anaerobic energy system.  So neither relates to the "single hardest move" concept: that's strength.

I do agree that you should do strength work first.  Build up the neuromuscular pathways, get bigger muscles, etc. - and only then do any endurance work.

However, the ancap and anpow stuff are both endurance (as is aero power and aero cap).  Physiologically, I'm thinking

* ancap is how much fuel your cells can store, how quickly they can replenish it, etc.?
* anpow is how efficient the muscles are at using it, or how quickly they can use it.

... similarly for the aero cap and power: you've got capillary transport, and type I/IIa/IIb conversion stuff going on.

In your regime, I think you're simply bundling the "cap" and "pow" together - which is traditional (or old school, depending).  The difference between the two I think is simply how quickly one exhausts the energy system and thus the adaptation that you're trying to get.

[Luke Owens]

I went to the cave today to try left wall, thought I'd be too tired after the AnCap stuff this week but actually felt really good after warming up. Felt stronger and fitter on the moves/links than last session.

Managed it from the horizontal shothole start which is good progress for me (~11 moves to a no hands knee bar then ~10 moves to the end). Did all the moves from the proper start at the back too (4 moves), tried a quick link at the end of the session and linked 4 moves into about 3 moves of the shothole start but was too tired. Just got to link the whole thing now just 4 moves to add, think it will go quicker than I expected.

could people stop calling them an pow aero cap etc when talking to a layman on Ukb. I got a txt the other night from an 8c climber, miserable failure at 8c+, simply saying "what the fuck are they talking about on Ukb? What is all that an cap shit?" No one has a clue, with the possible exception of Tommy & barrows.

I actually find the geekery interesting and am keen to learn more about it. 

Not everyone is going to be interested in this stuff and that's fine, no ones telling you you have to understand it. For me personally I could ask everyone in laymans terms what I want to do, go do the recommend training and get a route done; but I like to know why it worked and why the training I'm doing helps; it's just the way I am.

Here's a quick translation of a graph I did for a side-project of mine

We tried to explain the difference between Power vs "Capacity" (Work) using an analogy.

Really helpful analogy cheers!

Getting the snip should help mate.

I knew you'd end up posting that on here haha

[mrjonathanr]

However, the ancap and anpow stuff are both endurance (as is aero power and aero cap).  Physiologically, I'm thinking

* ancap is how much fuel your cells can store, how quickly they can replenish it, etc.?
* anpow is how efficient the muscles are at using it, or how quickly they can use it.

Thanks for replying.

Well now that's an interesting question, as far as I know we are only able to break ATP down to ADP + P for anaerobic energy so I don't understand how to differentiate these two concepts in terms of systems.

... similarly for the aero cap and power: you've got capillary transport, and type I/IIa/IIb conversion stuff going on.

I thought I/IIa,IIb was essentially mitochondrial differences in respect of being better equipped to facilitate energy through G+O2 vs ATP breakdown, capiliarisation enhancing the former.

In your regime, I think you're simply bundling the "cap" and "pow" together - which is traditional (or old school, depending).  The difference between the two I think is simply how quickly one exhausts the energy system and thus the adaptation that you're trying to get.

Goes back to systems, really this is basic physiology - basic for those who have that knowledge of course! I might find it useful to learn more I think

'Old school'? Well I started climbing in 1982, haven't yet climbed much harder than I did in '92, so you may have a point...

edit - comments about aero added