[Kingy]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway

I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire

I am not an expert on these routes as I've done neither of them

Speculatively - I understand there was a lot of fixed 'junk' on directissima. Wires alone would not protect it? whereas déjà was threads followed by wires - so all natural gear (though you can traverse to clip bolts?)

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Not quite right, there were always Bolts on Deja Vu higher up as well so it has never been 'all natural gear' so wires alone would not protect it.

[dave]

The question still remains that why, having already done his 8b+ with the gear as it was, seemingly at no great impediment to the 8b+ climber, did NG feel the need to then retrobolt it? Was there really a grassroots clamour from thread-shy 7b climbers desperate for it to be retroed?

[shark]

The question still remains that why, having already done his 8b+ with the gear as it was, seemingly at no great impediment to the 8b+ climber, did NG feel the need to then retrobolt it? Was there really a grassroots clamour from thread-shy 7b climbers desperate for it to be retroed?

I'm sure he thought he was just doing everyone (or 99%) a favour

[T_B]

Ego. We've all got one. No doubt Neil wants to leave his mark with a fully-bolted 8b+ that, in his eyes, supersedes DV. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

The threads were fine and clipping a thread never feels the same as clipping a bolt. Yes, there are lots of examples of Yorkshire (and Kilnsey) lime routes that have been retro-ed, but I don't see that as an argument for yet more retro-bolting. As Adam Lincoln hints at above, it's only a matter of time before Cave Route RH gets the treatment.

Personally, I'd prefer that route to have the pegs stripped and become a spicy E7 with big air time potential, rather than a 7b+, but that's me and my ego. I enjoyed its sport-trad state, gripped fiddling wires in the top crack pumped out of my box. Others might too.

However, there is a difference between replacing rotten pegs in placements that have effectively gone, with bolts, and replacing threads which are absolutely fine, with bolts.

Sport climbing is massively popular at the moment, but it wasn't a few years back. With access to crags like Blue Scar problematic thesedays, it would be good to retain some harder trad objectives in Yorkshire on K and G.

[Fultonius]

Why didn't he replace the threads with a swaged wire loop? No drilling required, trad-heads would have a hard time arguing over material choice, long lasting and almost as bomber as a bolt.

Win-win-win.

[Fiend]

I've often wondered that, as a general principle, where threads are "fundamental" and hard to place on lead...

[Fiend]

Finally someone on the UKC thread is talking a lot of sense:

"Maybe the new bolts lower down represent progress, maybe they represent vandalism. There's no right or wrong answer, they're just two different points of view. But we should know by now that a community with differing points of view should be given an opportunity to air them, to consult, before unilateral action is taken. And if we didn't realise that before this thread, surely we should realise it now. I accept that Neil did some consulting including, importantly, the FA and the FFA, and I'm not wanting to demonise the man, but consulting on facebook amongst an audience of friends and followers is no consultation at all. This thread looks like convincing evidence to me that further consultation would have been appropriate in this instance.
"

That's the real issue. There are a lot of grey areas and a lot of possible factors / solutions etc to deal with with the perculiar mixture of old fixed gear and new fixed gear in this country, so there's not one answer and one correct solution in cases like this. BUT, interested parties and the general climbing public should be given the opportunity for feedback, opinions, and consensus in borderline / possibly controversial cases like this, about what happens to the general public resource of the rock and routes.

If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit, the replacement should happen, and there wouldn't be any of this fuss.

(Sorry a bit badly written)

[tomtom]

Good grief. The ukc thread for this has become 'knob slamming in car door' painful to read....

[lagerstarfish]

I can't find the "stone him" button on Face Book

[Doylo]

Found it pretty ironic Mick Ryan has been banned from posting on that thread 

[Fiend]

Michael Ryan
This user is currently restricted from posting.
Most restrictions are only temporary. Please don't start threads about banned users. You can contact us if you wish to discuss this restriction.

[Paul B]

If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit, the replacement should happen, and there wouldn't be any of this fuss.

(Sorry a bit badly written)

The Yorkshire Bolt Fund Facebook group may have also been a good place for a preliminary discussion (as I'm not convinced that it's wholly practical to use BMC meets in each and every case) given the stakeholders who often comment.

If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit

Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions? There a very few people who seem to be able to see grey in these debates from what I've seen (I know that's the bus from Bristol defence but I think it holds true in this case) and I can't imagine the there for the curry types would try and see any merit in the argument that this might be progress.

[cowboyhat]

If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit

Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions?

Possibly, or having done it more formally he may even have got what he wanted and it would have gone quietly into the night. My problem is the idea that your own facebook page is the correct forum for any debate other than what to have for breakfast.

Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.

[Paul B]

Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.

Evidently! I wonder what the reaction would've been if it'd been 'digested' on a local scale before making its way to Social/Climbing media? Less knee-jerk I would assume. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[shark]

If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit

Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions?

Possibly, or having done it more formally he may even have got what he wanted and it would have gone quietly into the night. My problem is the idea that your own facebook page is the correct forum for any debate other than what to have for breakfast.

Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.

 

With the benefit of hindsight that would have been a much better way for him to go but given his views "that open forums are always wrecked by trolls as you know." and his dim view of BMC Area Meetings (I cant find the quote) a better choice on Facebook would have been the active "Malham & Kilnsey lifts/partners/conditions/beta" page of which he is a member along with over 600 others

[a dense loner]

I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends

[shark]

I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends

You don't get out much though

[Oldmanmatt]

Why didn't he replace the threads with a swaged wire loop? No drilling required, trad-heads would have a hard time arguing over material choice, long lasting and almost as bomber as a bolt.

Win-win-win.

It would be easier to (roughly) gauge the state of the threads than a swaged loop.
Also, the narrow wire (relative to the sling) is more likely to break the Rock of the thread.


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[dave]

Wire swages would deffo end up cutting the rock up like nobody's business, unless they were sleeved in plastic or something, which probably isn't wise in terms of hiding any corrosion/damage and letting water linger.

Personally I don't find a bit of tat that visually offensive, certainly less offensive than when folk leave draws in a route for days/weeks/months.

[Fultonius]

True, lime is a bit on the less tough side.

[SA Chris]

True, lime is a bit on the less tough side.

Great geological definition

[bigtuboflard]

Moh's scale of hardness. About the only useful thing I can remember from my first year geology part of my degree.


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[a dense loner]

I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends

You don't get out much though

Nor do I want to if this thread (or bolt) is anything to go by!

[Fiend]

I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends

580 of them are various Shark aliases / clones trying to cadge a lift and belay at Malham.

Good views in this thread, I think.

[petejh]

Good views in this thread, I think.

I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experience^TM

Thank you.