[Johnny Brown]

Don't worry, it's the crux I was falling off.

On reflection, I think the older guy retrobolting thing must be because they've done the route years ago in it's trad form, moved onto purely bolt climbing and now want to warm up on it. Assuming the world has moved on too has some validity but also involves having your cake and eating it before the youth get any.

[Teaboy]

Eh wot? Sorry don't get that in the slightest. Just because someone hasn't been aware of a route for the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that once they are aware of it, their inspiration is suddenly invalid.

My point was that I'd be staggered to the point of disbelief if JB had only recently heard of this route

[shark]

Neil has published an article on UKC http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69969

I like Neil but I do not like the way he has gone about this and the emotive language he uses which has not helped make for reasoned debate and consideration on a topic which there are generally strong feelings anyway.

[hstmoore]

He makes out in that article that it's the 'old guard' that is against his bolting.... but I'm in my 20s, haven't been climbing for all that long, and really aspired to do routes such as Deja Vu. The reports of where the bolts are/aren't are confusing, but I feel disappointed that I might not be able to have the full deja vu experience. Particularly as, in the UKC article, Neil comments that he added the lower bolts after doing his FA!

p.s isn't this all a bit ironic as the retrobolting debate has been deja vu? 

[Teaboy]

Don't worry, it's the crux I was falling off.

On reflection, I think the older guy retrobolting thing must be because they've done the route years ago in it's trad form, moved onto purely bolt climbing and now want to warm up on it. Assuming the world has moved on too has some validity but also involves having your cake and eating it before the youth get any.

Almost certainly true but the route is still there for you youths (ahem) to enjoy in all its ankle breaking glory. No one is more versed than me in the idiosyncrasies of UK ethics so I understand why totally illogical things matter, but, objecting to a bomber thread being replaced by a bolt on a route that is protected by bolts already takes that illogicality too far for me (to the point where I don't understand why NG put his head above the parapet).

What is it you are trying to preserve? If you think it sets a dangerous precedent then that ship sailed years ago with the bolting of Dominatrix and Directissima, if you want to preserve the bad fall, that's still there, if you want to preserve the danger of a climbing above dodgy in situ gear that was never available as they are pretty bomber. Hopefully my last word on the matter as I don't feel strongly enough about the bolts to spend this much time discussing them (that last bit could equally be directed at hstmoore, I'm interested in what the full déjà vu experience is considered to be)

[danm]

My point was that I'd be staggered to the point of disbelief if JB had only recently heard of this route

I'm not, he's pretty grit-centric - I had to do a double take upon finding him lurking down the Cornice last month!

I think the real pity here is that Neil didn't need to place those bolts - he'd already done his extension plus the threads sound bomber and are on a bit of the route that should be piss for an 8b+ redpointer. Doing anything to fuck with a *** ER tick is asking for trouble, even if it makes total sense and is logical. Why take the risk in the first place? I think the very fact that a fair number of people have come out to say they are either uncomfortable or downright mad with the new bolts is a fair indication that he didn't consult as widely or as thoroughly as he thought he had. Everyone ends up losing this way - his new route gets tarnished, the crag suffers when someone self righteously chops the bolts, and we end up more polarised as a community just when it seemed a happy consensus was being reached.

[dave]

I think the very fact that a fair number of people have come out to say they are either uncomfortable or downright mad with the new bolts is a fair indication that he didn't consult as widely or as thoroughly as he thought he had.

ARE YOU CRAZY? HE GOT 400 FACEBOOK LIKES FFS!!!!1111!!!! AND NOT ONE SINGLE DISLIKE.

[ashtond6]

to be clear - I have not climbed Deja Vu but I have been hoping to do it soon.  I am training to hopefully onsight at that grade & when I visited Kilnsey the line grabbed me - so I added it to my 'list'

I didn't want to have an opinion until I had read the background, so I read Neil's FB post & his 'justification' on UKC

I now think its disgusting. I feel that Neil has put this post online to try to gain acceptance without providing the people real facts about the route. (Extreme rock, threads replaced every year, top bolt clippable etc)

The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.

I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge

[Offwidth]

Neil implies on his UKC letter that the vast majority of local activists he asked support what he did.. that sems pretty odd to me

"The interesting thing is that literally hundreds of people share this view. The reason I know this is because I canvassed the crag for two seasons before replacing the low threads with bolts and also put the feelers out on social media, receiving over 400 hundred ‘likes’ for a related post. It was amazing how many people felt passionately about this" which begs the question how many feel, different and are they all old

He does follow this with a good troll...

"as well as the other controversial issue of why all the first bolts are so high up on this part of the crag".. someone really needs to invent a long extendable pole so you can pre clip these...

...but must go now as the talk of curry is distracting my HVS mindset.

[shark]

The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.

I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge

I can easily imagine how Neil's overwhelming enthusiasm and general popularity will have won over climbers who happened to be at the crag and on his facebook page and of course the easy going Ron when he eventually contacted him.

If this any indication of the direction of travel it seems to be polarising territorially into having either a Sport Crag or a Trad Crag.

Similar scenario with Cocytus at Anstey's Cove.

[Fiend]

Even Mick "milk the climbing media / politics cow until it's udders bleed" Ryan is taking a strong stance against this one.

Gresh's arguments are weak on many counts. I might need another coffee before posting on UKC tho.

[andy_e]

I'm not expert on this string chuffing stuff despite having spent my last five weekends at kilnsey. What I really don't get though is, why climb the route as a trad route up to the roof, then do the roof as a sport route as he did on the actual ascent, just to go and put bolts in afterwards? Surely his ascent of the entire line shows it doesn't need to be bolted? Seems peculiar to me.

[Paul B]

it isn't though Shark, as Teaboy pointed out, this won't happen on the pure Trad routes at the crag and people who are indifferent to the lower bolts on déjà vu feel strongly about the climbs with a whole lot less, if any, fixed gear.

[Nigel]

Nothing to add as it all goes over my head, although I liked the bit where he said he was concerned that "...I have set a worrying president...".

[ashtond6]

The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.

I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge

I can easily imagine how Neil's overwhelming enthusiasm and general popularity will have won over climbers who happened to be at the crag and on his facebook page and of course the easy going Ron when he eventually contacted him.

If this any indication of the direction of travel it seems to be polarising territorially into having either a Sport Crag or a Trad Crag.

I feel it is very easy to jump onto a bandwagon with a public icon. it seems like Neil has used this tool to gain support. Social media can be used very effectively to get what you want. In a much more extreme example it was used to abuse migrants (Calais swarm etc) then love migrants (child on beach)

Keen activists of the UK climbing scene (Critchley, Enty, Littlefair, Mick etc) seem to be getting abused on Neils facebook, by people who have no idea on the subject. Which is just ridiculous

The real discussion should surely have been at the BMC local area meet? Not on a facebook page. As there people can give an opinion if you care enough & whether you climb VS or 8c.

[a dense loner]

I have no interest in what's happened, but I will say it's been damn good publicity for a publicity seeking guy

[Lund]

Good debate.

We've been through this several times I think.  Most recently through some massive debate about some rock on the gower.

There's even a BMC policy document about it.  (The result of some large, all over the country meetings with lots of people and that were generally well-chaired.)

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-drilled-equipment-and-dry-tooling-position-statements

It's the closest we've got to a consensus position that gave everyone a say.

It says this:

retro-bolting proposals should be widely publicised prior to discussion, and agreed on a consensus basis.

In these discussions the following factors must be given careful consideration:

•   Access, environmental and land ownership issues.
•   The history of the area or crag in terms of the established climbing ethics.
•   Existing drilled equipment policies and agreements in place.
•   The views of the first ascensionists.
•   The level of importance (i.e. local / regional / national) of the area or crag in question.
•   The nature of the rock (i.e. natural or quarried) and the availability of natural protection.
•   The aspirations of current and future generations of climbers.

In the case of substantive and potentially controversial proposals to use drilled equipment, wider consultation should be carried out through National Council, the BMC Area structure and the BMC’s media outlets prior to agreement.  The document provides further guidance to the BMC drilled equipment policy 1992.

Now clearly, Neil has taken one of those into account - the first ascentionist.  He does seem to have neglected the others, and "debate" on his facebook page, in his lounge, or in his own head hardly counts.

It seems pretty clear to me.  Neil hasn't sought the right permissions, nor had the right discussions, nor sought consensus (e.g. at the LOCAL area meeting).  Canvassing the crag for people who might agree with him isn't the right way for obvious reasons.

Personally, I think the right thing to do here is to

* Have the retroactive debate in the area meeting, get loads of people from both sides to attend, chair it well.  It might not be the best ever way of resolving it, but as pete says, it's the best we have.

* If everyone decides to not bolt it... then the bolts get chopped.  And if Neil doesn't like it, well then he can go and bolt something that's not a forty year old piece of british climbing history but is something geniuinely new instead.

[Johnny Brown]

Even Mick "milk the climbing media / politics cow until it's udders bleed" Ryan is taking a strong stance against this one.

I think Mick is just enjoying his first UKC bolt debate as an independent.

Despite my longstanding support of BMC area meets, I think forum threads are the best place for these debates. Area meets only have limited time, and limited room. Yes, you might get some idiots on the net but over a proper thread everyone gets to have their say, points of fact get confirmed or otherwise, and people have time to think properly about their opinion. Everything so far suggests Neil was reluctant to engage with anyone who might disagree.

[Nemo]

At the risk of disagreeing with the general tone...

Of all the retroed routes to be making a fuss about, this does seem like a ridiculous one to choose.

I've done Deja Vu a bunch of times at various points in the mid to late 90s.  I've never taken any wires.  It was vaguely run out on easy ground, but was always pretty much a badly equipped clip up.  The fact it is in Extreme Rock is pretty irrelevant - so are lots of sport routes.

Make a fuss about The Directissima.  Make a fuss about the Cave Routes.  Make a fuss about Dominatrix.  They would all hang together as great trad routes.  All could be climbed no problem without any fixed gear.  I'd be quite happy to see all completely stripped. 

But Deja Vu?  It is and always has been a sport route.  Replacing ugly threads every year in some vague attempt to pretend you're trad climbing is just utterly dumb.

Having said that, I should probably admit that I feel the same way about ALL tatt and pegs - everywhere.  They are ridiculous, unslightly anachronisms from a bygone age - and pegs in particular have in a single generation wrecked some of the best climbing on the planet.  If you want fixed gear use top quality very long lasting bolts and place them well.  If you don't want fixed gear, or can't be arsed to place top quality bolts, then don't use fixed gear... 

Tatt and pegs will all go eventually (with some of the routes becoming trad and others sport, and others mixed.)  The only question is how much fuss people make about the process.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think the real pity here is that Neil didn't need to place those bolts ..

..when someone self righteously chops the bolts

I don't think it'd be any more self-righteous to chop the bolts, than to put them in.

Amazingly, angle grinders from Lidl are even cheaper than some of the pro-bolting arguments here!

We've been through a period where efforts were made to accommodate both the sport and trad ethics, and for them to coexist on the same crags, but recently there has been an explosion of sport climbing and retro-bolting, which as Shark says, has resulted in the conflict becoming more territorial.

Now the trad/HVS climbers/curry eaters are pushed out to their reservations on the mountain crags.

I think there is so much non-sensical discussion here, dressed up as rational debate - to a degree, on both sides. I think we'd be better off recognising that.

Much of the claims made to the popular vote seem to be achieved by deciding who has a stake and who doesn't, and therefore, bizarrely, who has a right to vote.

All sounds very familiar.

[cowboyhat]

I like Neil but I do not like the way he has gone about this and the emotive language he uses which has not helped make for reasoned debate and consideration on a topic which there are generally strong feelings anyway.

Exactly that. I have no specific knowledge of these routes but his attitude has been disappointing.

Neil Gresham, Facebook 03AUG14
"quick ethical Q: any objections to me placing some lower first bolts on a few notable sport routes at Kilnsey so folk can climb without stupid sticks or breaking ankles?"

(following a lot of confirmation bias agreements etc, I mean: who wants a broken ankle? )

he goes on to say
"Thanks to you all for your replies. No trad or mixed-gear routes will be touched. A few first ascentionists have given permission already. BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"

[shark]

it isn't though Shark, as Teaboy pointed out, this won't happen on the pure Trad routes at the crag and people who are indifferent to the lower bolts on déjà vu feel strongly about the climbs with a whole lot less, if any, fixed gear.

Get a grip - you are a SCIENTIST.

Predicting with such certainty is very difficult, especially when its about the future.

[shurt]

he goes on to say
"BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"

says is all really...

i'm not sure how a FB page looked at by only people who are interested in the goings on of Neil Gresham is the place to have a balanced discussion about whether his actions are right/wrong/good/bad/justifiable etc.

[Fultonius]

he goes on to say
"BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"

says is all really...

i'm not sure how a FB page looked at by only people who are interested in the goings on of Neil Gresham is the place to have a balanced discussion about whether his actions are right/wrong/good/bad/justifiable etc.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about the route in question (never climbed in the peak) but this ^^^  also really pisses me off, as if a group of sycophantic followers counts as "balanced debate", especially when he just ignored the shit out of some valid comments from knowledgeable peeps.   

[Lund]

Ah fuck it, just get it chopped, enough fancy talk.