[ashtond6]

 

comments are now calling for this to be a 'poignant' bolt in UK ethics, whilst calling for the same to happen to Carn Vellan

One of the guys singing his praise is solely an indoor plastic climber from my old neck of the woods!!!! 

[Stu Littlefair]

I have no problem with tat. It's easy to replace, it's easy to check if it's new, it relies on natural features.

TBH in the UK we have a very bad track record of eventually fully bolting everything where the fixed gear gets replaced with bolts.  And then adding more bolts when the next generation finds it necky.


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[Fultonius]

deleted as I realised this isn't the place.

[Sasquatch]

I'm not part of the scene there, so can only give observations frm my local scene. 

#1 - Pegs are not accepted as protection locally.  Either place gear, bolt it if it doesn't take gear, or be bold and run it out. 

#2 - No bolting a crack if the rock is solid.  This is generally a hard and fast rule, but we do have one sport crag where the rock is generally suspect and it is mostly all bolted now. 

#3 - Retrobolting - we are currently having a small but similar debate where there was a new route added near an existing route.  The existing route had a runout start section followed by a rightward traverse with gear.  The new route start to the left of the existing startand continues up and left after 3 bolts.  But it can be led to the third bolt and linked into the traverse where you get gear.  What this means is that the outcome will almost definitely end up being everyone clips the bolts to get to the traverse and the gear.   There are quite a few arguments about whether this constitues retrobolting...  No community consensus at this time, but personally I hope the bolts stay as both routes are better this way, and you still have the option of doing the bolt start should you so desire. 

Don't know if that helps to give an outsider's perspective...

[Johnny Brown]

What Stu said.

I find it very worrying when people dismiss threads and pegs as 'fixed gear' that is somehow equivalent to bolts. Do people really not understand or appreciate the fundamental difference between a natural gear placement and a man-made one, and how crucial that is to the trad ethic?

Just done a route on Lundy with a bunch of pegs 24 years old, stainless and in great nick. I've seen many shoddy bolts of similar age in far worse nick. But somehow we've sorted out decent bolts but all pegs are now considered bad?

[Kingy]

Just seen Pete Gomersall's post on the other channel in which he said he retrobolted the Directissima (FFA by Ron Fawcett), which used to rely on wires and threads.

Can somebody explain why it is OK for the Directissima to remain fully bolted while it is not OK for Deja Vu (also FFA by Ron Fawcett) to have threads replaced by bolts?

Surely if we are being consistent then the Directissima should be restored to its former 'glory' and become a trad climb once again. Who votes for chopping the bolts on Directissma and getting some threads back in it?

[abarro81]

I don't really care whether these bolts stay or go, I just wanted to respond to JB talking about pegs and seacliffs in the same sentence... 

I FUCKING HATE PEGS. Especially on sea cliffs. They're total bullshit. I remember looking at the pembroke north guide years ago, there was a whole crag of *** E5-6 all with shit loads of pegs in the description, but to go try them you'd have to replace the pegs or at least spend ages abbing to see if they're still E5-6 or now E8-9 or whatever. Fuckin' pegs, what a load of crap. Take the fuckers out and upgrade where necessary.

 

[Fiend]

What Stu (hoary old trad purist that he is) said.

Also while highballing has some popularity over here, and bold ascents do get some credit, I don't think the flow amongst climbing overall is balanced between "reducing risk with bolts" and "increasing risk and managing it with personal skill/experience". The trend overall is very much skewed towards the former.

[fatboySlimfast]

Just seen Pete Gomersall's post on the other channel in which he said he retrobolted the Directissima (FFA by Ron Fawcett), which used to rely on wires and threads.

and loads of bolts and golos

[Adam Lincoln]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

[IanP]

This seems a very strange route to get so worked up about - quality climbing and rock but always basically a mixed sport route with a dodgy start.  I did it the 90s when I was climbing a lot of lots of trad and sport, enjoyed it but it wasn't a big  committing trad experience in the sense of classic e5s like Right Wall, Supersonic or the Gogarth routes.

[Fiend]

Mixed sport routes with dodgy sections are where THE WEDGE starts 

[Lund]

Mixed sport routes with dodgy sections are where THE WEDGE starts 

Fuck me I agree with Fiend this is a disaster

[Stu Littlefair]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

I complained. And the bolts were taken out the first time it was tried, weren't they? And now I've heard that the bits where you need wires on CRR are either to be, or have already been, bolted so it can be done as a full sport route. Is that true? If so, it sort of proves the point doesn't it?


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[Lund]

[Paul B]

I find it a bit odd that Stu, and others think/thought the added lower bolts in many of the sport routes (some of which were initially trad and which certainly change the character) were a good idea but have an objection to the lower bolts!

... and lets remember, these threads are not natural (JB). The Pete G post on UKC is good.

... and the upper bolt is clippabale from déjà vu.

[Stu Littlefair]

it wasn't a big  committing trad experience in the sense of classic e5s like Right Wall, Supersonic or the Gogarth routes.

But no-one is even thinking of bolting those routes. I really like mixed routes and I don't see why the fact that it's not right wall means that it's ok to fully bolt it. I let out an exasperated sigh when people talk about "tidying up" mixed routes when in my opinion they mean "fucking up".

I got confirmation that Neil's higher bolt can be clipped from the route, a fact that he has repeatedly dodged when asked about it directly. I also find his UKC article misleading (perhaps deliberately so) about this. His higher bolt neutered the only necky bit on déjà vu and changes the nature of the route whatever Neil claims.

I'd rather the threads weren't replaced with bolts for all the reasons cited, but this upper bolt surely has to come out, doesn't it?


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[Stu Littlefair]

I find it a bit odd that Stu, and others think/thought the added lower bolts in many of the sport routes (some of which were initially trad and which certainly change the character) were a good idea but have an objection to the lower bolts!

... and lets remember, these threads are not natural. The Pete G post on UKC is good.

... and the upper bolt is clippabale from déjà vu.

A question - do we know for sure the threads are drilled? What's the source?

A Statement - I found nothing of interest in PeteG's post, and given his track record Of chipping and retrobolting I don't think he's the first person to turn to for ethical guidelines.

A defence - my opinion is (as anyone's) subjective and illogical but I break it down into routes I had to place gear on and routes I didn't. From this perspective, New Dawn, Yosemite Wall, Directissima are fair game for conversion to full sport routes whilst CRR and Déjà Vu are not.




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[abarro81]

The upper bolt seems the more pertinent issue to me, but I appreciate that that may not be a universal view.

IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)

[shark]

IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)

The top runout on Obsession instantly springs to mind - later retrobolted

[Nemo]

"I find it very worrying when people dismiss threads and pegs as 'fixed gear' that is somehow equivalent to bolts." - JB

I've never said that pegs are equivalent to bolts.  They're infinitely worse.

"Do people really not understand or appreciate the fundamental difference between a natural gear placement and a man-made one" - JB

Yes, and that's precisely the flippin problem with pegs.  They are placed IN THE HOLDS, irreversibly changing them.  From a long term perspective, pegs are just delayed chipping.  Whereas bolts are pretty much always placed to the side of the features into blank rock, thus not affecting the physical climbing at all.

Continuing the tangent, since you seem to like Yosemite ethics so much...

Personally, I think one of the biggest crimes in climbing is being perpetuated year in year out by people with hammers on El Cap systematically trashing some of the most beautiful rock on the planet.  Take a look at pictures of The Shield headwall from a few decades ago.  And then look at it now (see links below).  It's a disgrace.  Using pegs / bashies is completely unsustainable and should be condemned in the same way as chipping - because it IS chipping (just delayed a few years…). 

The sooner pegs die away the better.  IF it is decided that a route / crag is suitable for fixed gear, then that fixed gear should be top quality, long lasting bolts.

O.k, o.k – I know things aren’t quite that clear cut in the real world.  On easier routes "the holds" don't take on quite as much significance as on hard routes because there are lots of them.  And perhaps on the occasional really loose cliff where bolts aren't any use (as you could pull them out by hand), or in the higher mountain ranges, then pegs will occasionally still have their uses.  But in the vast majority of places, the sooner we are rid of them the better.

e.g: Anyone who thinks this kind of nonsense in the name of "trad climbing ethics" and "placing gear in natural features" is better than the occasional bolt needs their head examining:
http://w3.gorge.net/mhudon/shield_photos/bashie.jpg
http://w3.gorge.net/mhudon/shield_photos/this-was-A5.jpg

Or to put it a bit more succinctly:

"Fuckin' pegs, what a load of crap. Take the fuckers out and upgrade where necessary." - abarro81

 

[ashtond6]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway

[Fiend]

Yes, and that's precisely the flippin problem with pegs.  They are placed IN THE HOLDS, irreversibly changing them.  From a long term perspective, pegs are just delayed chipping. 

Not always the case. Not everywhere is Millstone. In fact, Millstone is the only place where I've found peg-made holds. There's not really a lot of full-on aid climbing going on on the current other trad route pegs in this country to create a load of peg pockets when the pegs rot away / someone replaces them with bolts. They usually seem to be placed in seams and blind shitty little slots you can't do much with.

P.S. I personally like pegs as a form of fixed trad gear accepting natural weaknesses in the rock, as opposed to bolts. But I do understand the reliability/rusting away reasons against them, and do thing their usage is open to fair debate.

IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)

Slate. And Pen Trwyn. I'm sure there's a few on Peak Lime I've done too.

[Kingy]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway

I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire

[ashtond6]

Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)

I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway

I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire

I am not an expert on these routes as I've done neither of them

Speculatively - I understand there was a lot of fixed 'junk' on directissima. Wires alone would not protect it? whereas déjà was threads followed by wires - so all natural gear (though you can traverse to clip bolts?)

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