[Johnny Brown]

Not done these routes but I would have liked to. Like White Gold I suspect I'm unlikely to now. As with Tom's opinion would seem valid. The crucial point to me would seem to be whether the threads drilled or not.

Having spoken to Ron about bolting I'm sure his 'times change' comment means he's a nice guy and not about to stand in the way of what the next generation see as progress. Not that he's enthusiastic about it.

'I find it breathtaking that he should tell us how we should equip our own climb' works both ways doesn't it.

I'm sure there's something significant in the fact that gross acts of retrobolting are almost always carried out by the over-forties, but I'm not sure what exactly.

[Fiend]

It sounds like the thread issue is a bit hazy in this case, but good on you guys for standing up and questioning the bolting. In some cases re/retrobolting will be the right thing to do but I think if there's any doubt it should be questioned and fought against if necessary.

[Jerry Morefat]

'I find it breathtaking that he should tell us how we should equip our own climb' works both ways doesn't it.

Agreed.

Although I can understand the arguments for replacing the threads with a bolt, I'm still a bit grumpy about it. As I recall, the threads were quite far off the ground and there is the potential for a nasty ground fall whilst climbing up to them. It could be argued that this is one of the reasons the route should be E5 rather than 7a. My concern is that now there is a bolt where the threads used to be, someone might feel it's a good idea to add another bolt at the start to make it safer.

For me, the real issue is the 'extra bolt' higher up, which if it can be clipped on the run out of Déjà vu certainly changes the character of the route. Unless I've missed, Neil has responded to comments on this.

[Paul B]

As I've stated on Facebook, I think Neil may have been having his leg rather publically pulled on this one as general crag banter was very reasoned and the only bolt really raising any eyebrows was the upper one.

My concern is that now there is a bolt where the threads used to be, someone might feel it's a good idea to add another bolt at the start to make it safer.

Perhaps, although you can stick clip it, like you could the threads (and like I did the other week) so I'd be surprised if anyone does so in the near future (and I'd put money on it disappearing rapidly should it happen). I can see this raising the Face Value discussion again but that was well discussed only a month or so ago with a resounding 'No'.

I'm sure there's something significant in the fact that gross acts of retrobolting are almost always carried out by the over-forties, but I'm not sure what exactly.

So, given the permissions gained etc., the timing (i.e. waiting), what would you have aspiring retro-bolters do differently (if you are to accept that SOME routes are valid candidates)?

[Johnny Brown]

Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.

Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.

I don't know the area well enough personally, but the arguments raised seem weak. The ludicrous claim that you can still do your E5 by ignoring by the boots is there of course. Well why not bolt everything then? Props to Stu for making some fair points in the face of a very unbalanced crowd. Shame Neil appears to repeatedly ignore his questions over the higher bolt.

[lagerstarfish]

Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls'

Sloper will still be out celebrating Corbyn's win, so there's never been a better opportunity for avoiding climbing trolls

[Teaboy]

Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.

To what end though? The arguments are well known, this has been going on since the 80s,  no one ever changes their mind everyone is too entrenched. The argument about not clipping the bolts is totally ridiculous, I agree, but to imply that's the main argument in favour of the bolts is disingenuous. In fact one of the people making the argument has a trad pedigree to shame most and so I think she is, ironically, trolling.

[petejh]

Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.

The ludicrous claim that you can still do your E5 by ignoring by the boots is there of course. Well why not bolt everything then? Props to Stu for making some fair points in the face of a very unbalanced crowd.

I had a look at that facebook page of NG's - maybe I'm too naive but I just assume that most people are either intelligent enough, or so well-versed, following 6000 years of debate, in both sides of the bolt debate these days that literally everyone was like me and rolling their eyes in despair and assuming either mental retardation at the bird who said 'you don't have to clip the bolts' (or good trolling skills?).

Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.

Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.

If asked to come up with the worst methods of holding productive sensible discussions about bolting, I'd place UKC at the bottom with poorly represented BMC meetings (consisting of two people on either side of the debate and a bunch of HVS climbers there for the curry) just above, and UKB only just above them. Well represented BMC meetings with a well-chaired debate would sit above UKB.

The best way would be asking the opinions of a relatively small number of locals of different generations and holding differing viewpoints. Which is possibly what NG did, I don't know.

I don't know the area well enough personally, but the arguments raised seem weak.

Sounds to me like you don't have a valid stake in the matter of this specific route then, no matter you're experience elsewhere. And should leave it to the very small number of people who do. Just like me.

[Fiend]

Well represented BMC meetings with a well-chaired debate would sit above UKB.

Would there still be curry involved though?

[mikester]

Seems odd that there's a presumption to escalate the amount and quality of fixed gear in a route rather than to reduce or eliminate it. Maybe a better thing for Déjà Vu might be to climb it in improved style (i.e. without threads), perhaps making it a classier, bolder wall climb? Let's face it, bolting Déjà Vu was just an expedient way to access the roof where the meat of the climbing starts.

[Johnny Brown]

Sounds to me like you don't have a valid stake in the matter of this specific route the

Well I've always had ambitions of doing the classic trad extreme rock ticks at Kilnsey, so I think that buys me a stake. But I'll admit I don't know enough about the route to say imho it's right or wrong. But reading that infantile 'support' I'm thinking it's 2015 and if you are sparking a bolt debate at all it's probably a sign you've stepped over the mark. And let's face it, if Stu Littlefair thinks you've gone too far you probably have, he's hardly Ken fucking Wilson is he?

[Doylo]

Ken Wilson only managed 8c+.

[Teaboy]

Well I've always had ambitions of doing the classic trad extreme rock ticks at Kilnsey, so I think that buys me a stake.

You live in Sheffield don't you? From there you could be uncoiling your ropes at the bottom of the route in less time than it takes me to walk up the path to Cloggy. You wouldn't even have to drive there as each summer weekend there are car loads of Sheffieldites making the journey. Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years? So this stake of yours, how much is it worth given you've shown only a notional interest in the route in all that time?

I did the route in 1994 and my abiding memory of it was of the fixed gear, not the first two threads but all the way up, I remember having horrendous rope drag and I wasn't on a single rope. The bottom bit I remember very little of and today's climbers, used to steep rock from indoor walls etc., won't even notice it, especially as they'll probably throw a pad or two down. I know the bottom is unaffected by the bolts I'm just pointing out that the route was very much of its time. It has evolved and the new bolts are just part of that evolution it was never particularly bold, it was never intended as such it was just equiped as it was for pragmatic reasons. On the day I Deja Vu I also did Central Wall and the Diedre both of which were ace, proper trad routes and neither will be bolted despite the various straw man arguments I've heard. In my 100 plus visits since then I've only ever seen one other team on the Diedre and it is now very grassy, if you want to bequeath something to the future generation of Kilnsey trad climbers you'd be better off giving that an ascent and clean than complaining about something that makes no material difference to a route.

I'm not getting at you or anyone in particular, I'm not even strongly in favour of the bolts (I was against the bolts going in the bottom of Sticky Wicket/The Ashes, no fuss about them mind) just offering a perspective.

[mrjonathanr]

I remember doing the Superdirectissima on trad gear 10 years before that; quite exciting back then and pretty hard for me at the time. Personally I'd like the bolts to stay off the old trad routes, they'd be better experiences for it.

If people don't want to do them so what. It's not Centre Parks is it?

[petejh]

People have accidents at Centre Parks too you know
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-108234/Terror-blaze-rages-Centre-Parcs.html

Sounds fucking terrifying, give me a faux E5 anyday

[Fiend]

You live in Sheffield don't you? From there you could be uncoiling your ropes at the bottom of the route in less time than it takes me to walk up the path to Cloggy. You wouldn't even have to drive there as each summer weekend there are car loads of Sheffieldites making the journey. Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years? So this stake of yours, how much is it worth given you've shown only a notional interest in the route in all that time?

That's a bollox argument (the same one was misused against me by some bellend in the Ratho retrobolting debate). JB could have many reasons for not getting the route done until now: He might not have heard of it until recently, he might have only got into Lime climbing in the last few years, he might have many other climbing or indeed non-climbing priorities - and either way he'd probably have assumed that someone wouldn't have fucked with the "trad" status of the route, although that's maybe an optimistic assumption in this day and age. Generally you don't assume that your route inspirations will just disappear, unless it's on the Culm or the Lleyn!

Not getting at you or anyone in particular as yours was an otherwise sensible post.

[petejh]

Well he doesn't have to clip the bolts does he. Tsk...

[Wil]

I don't have experience of the route to comment on whether or not I think the bolts are appropriate.

However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community. I hope at least that discussion was raised at the crag regarding it. The avenues for discussion might be imperfect, but this was a route that deserved that.

FWIW I don't think it's particularly relevant whether the threads were drilled, I don't think that on its own is justification to drill more holes in it.

[Teaboy]

That's a bollox argument.

It may be (and possibly more vitriolic than I intended so apologies JB) but then you go and make an even more bollox argument "he might not have heard of it until recently" indeed. The point is I'm not sure why this route is getting so much attention, I know it's in ER but beyond that? If it were that good it would be done frequently as it is safe, not intimidating and even stays dry in the rain. It's one of those things that people like the idea of but really don't actually care about that much in reality, like those expensive gift shops in places like Harrogate or Didsbury selling handmade cards and wooden toys.

The good news is that mountain crags have never been safer from bolts than they are now.

[dave]

However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community.

What this guy said.

[grimer]

Am I right in thinking Deja Vu is the route with a bit of a gripping, very steep, boulder start up to threads (I suppose they mostly are around here) then a vertical wall with a tricky move high up, near the last bolt? If so - memory fading a bit, I recall carrying a few wires, but don't remember any particular runout? Is there was there is there one?

[Johnny Brown]

Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years?

I wish! That is the problem really, I am unbelievably shit on limestone. Last week I on sighted a pumpy E6 on Lundy, this weekend I failed to repoint Sardine. Again. I've been in proper lime E5 shape twice in my life, and both were before I had a kid and a full time job. So it'd be nice if the routes are still there when I have chance to get I shape to do them. Unless they are much easier in Yorkshire.

Totally agree that these routes are owned by the community. Which is why such discussions should take place in the widest forum possible. Not just to engage the widest range of opinions, but also so that we can all appreciate that range before making a decision.

[dave]

There's also a bit of a contradiction when folk bring the "well you've not even done the route so you can't have any say in this" - it's precisely those people who haven't yet done the route who should be taken into consideration! Future target market. People who's already done it have already done it.

[tim palmer]

However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community.

What this guy said.

spot on,  I can't understand why there wasn't a bit more discussion as the threads were in good nick and people were climbing the route (and neil had done his first ascent).  Surely there was ample time for a bit more thought, I agree it seems a little proprietorial

[Fiend]

then you go and make an even more bollox argument "he might not have heard of it until recently" indeed.

Eh wot? Sorry don't get that in the slightest. Just because someone hasn't been aware of a route for the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that once they are aware of it, their inspiration is suddenly invalid.

Also, what Dave said.

JB, try Another Choadside Attraction, it's more runout than hard and you get the same crux too. P.S. there's a thumb pocket rest after the Sardine crux bit.