[theemoominhunter]

 :please:was at Turkey Dip learlier week, didn't finish a route so stuck a screw gate in and lowered off. Went back last night to finish said route and the crab was gone. Just think it's a bit cheeky to pinch it when obviously someone's left it there for a reason. Are we all now pinching off each other? Why couldn't they have left it there? I'm very very local if someone fancies returning it

[Three Nine]

if id seen it, id have nicked it

[highrepute]

I guess because climbing is not allowed there they probably thought it best to remove it. I'd have done the same.

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[dave]

If had to leave a crab in to bail from a route then unless it was at the arse end of nowhere, or obviously at a bolt that others would also want to bail (i.e. impossible to dog past, hard crux before a runout etc) then I would expect it to be gone next time I went. Its hard to comment without knowing the route, but these days with the current access situations on Peak limestone I think removing unnecessary in situ crabs/draws is generally speaking to be encouraged.

[Bonjoy]

Ditto. If a single crab is left on a route in a position other than the belay or as an intermediate lower off on a roof then it is fair to assume it is litter and to remove

[theemoominhunter]

 No way bonjoy, that's a stupid argument. If that was the case, why didn't they do the decent thing and help me to remove all the actual litter in the cave at the bottom?

I was talking to the Enthovens groundsman there the other day, they don't care about climbing, just fishermen.

Also Turkey dip is well off the beaten track so the hole monsaldale Insitu gear thing doesn't matter.

It's simple really, someone took something that wasn't theres

[Bonjoy]

Not leaving unnecessary insitu crabs is not primarily an access issue, monsal Dale or otherwise. The principle is that we don't leave stuff hanging off the rock that doesn't have a good reason to be there. It's just climbers taking care of the places they use. Yes it is a good thing if cliimbers take away other people's    litter off the ground (as I guess you did after noticing it), but our first responsibility is to tidy our own stuff away.
The question of litter aside you still should have had some expectation of loosing your kit. Climbers regularly retreat from bail biners for many reasons, typically with no plan of returning to remove the gear. If all these were left on the off chance that the person who left them intends to return then the crags would soon be plastered in loads of rotting crabs. I've left bail biners before and I've taken a similar number of other people's away, that's how it works.

[theemoominhunter]

I know exactly how it works. It just really pissed me off.

It pisses me off that someone lifting a bail bina is being dressed up as some altruistic crag clean up when there's at least 4 bin liners worth of tins and old BBQ's left to go.

Basically, one of our own thought, fuck it, I'm pinching that

[abarro81]

If I leave draws in things I expect them to stay. If I leave a biner in a loweroff to make everyone's life easier I expect it to stay. If I leave a single krab on a random bolt in the middle of a route I wouldn't expect it to still be there when I went back... standard innit.

[theemoominhunter]

Low standard

[abarro81]

No, not really, people aren't usually coming back in that situation, and you end up with lots of stuck rotting krabs. Progress has a few like this - you'd need a bolt cutter to remove them as they're corroded shut and just get in the way

[theemoominhunter]

I'll leave a little tag on it next time telling folk when I'm coming back shall I?

[abarro81]

Just clipstick to the top and strip the route

[jwi]

It's really irritating to hang draws when there's leaver biners in the hangers. Especially on hard onsights. It's good form remove quicklinks and leaver biners when found.

[saltbeef]

this is standard form dude. if you leave a lone biner on something other than the chain then expect it to be gone next time you go

[theemoominhunter]

Love the justifications for theft. If it was scruffy to leave it in the hanger/might blow someone's onsite why wasn't it taken out and left at the crag?

I know it's at the other end of the spectrum but if you left your keys in the car and it wasn't there the next day........

The parallels are there

[tomtom]

So Moomin - how is someone coming to the crag - seeing a lone crab supposed to tell the difference between whether or not it's been a) dumped there as someone gave up and won't be back (meaning it's effectively litter and should be removed) or b) someone is coming back in the next couple of days to do the route again and wants it left there.

???

If it's dumped there it's littering - if someone takes it - it's theft? I'm not taking a side - just pointing out (the bleeding obvious) what seems to be solely dependant upon the crab placers aims - and unknown to anyone else coming along there...

Sounds like leaving a little message on it might be your best option!!

[andy popp]

I would never expect any gear I'd abandoned to simply remain there until I might come back to claim it. The ethic I grew up in as a climber is that if you abandon gear on a crag then you've renounced your claim on it - probably not legally the case, but it was clearly understood and cut both ways.

[theemoominhunter]

It's obviously not been dumped there has it.

I'm not that bothered about the loss of a 5 quid krab, I just started thinking about the principle of the thing

I suppose the right thing to do is either leave it at the bottom of the crag or put it back after your session

[andy popp]

It's obviously not been dumped there has it.

But you'd left the crag without retrieving it.

[abarro81]

What are you on about moomin hunter? 90% of bail krabs have been abandoned by people bailing who don't have a particular intention of going back, so no, it's not obvious that it hasn't just been dumped there, unlike a krab that's clearly useful for stripping a route or an insitu draw or a line of draws...

[Doylo]

I ab off expansion bolt hangars with a pull through or a stitch plate. Perfectly fine as the  ropes static on the edge of the bolt and saves having to leave a biner.

[Lopez]

I ab off expansion bolt hangars with a pull through or a stitch plate. Perfectly fine as the  ropes static on the edge of the bolt and saves having to leave a biner.

I know a guy who broke his arm when the rope got cut doing that... You are better off doing a reterievable sling abseil fpr the sake of a few more seconds setting up

[theemoominhunter]

You know what I mean Andy

Like I said, I'm not bothered about the bina. It is interesting to see how people dress up taking something that doesn't belong to them it's really that simple.

The ethics of crag booty have been around for years and I get it.

Love the 'taking dumped stuff away from the crag' angle, shame it doesn't extend to the many cans in the little cave. I'll leave some bags on the shelf on the right of anyone is feeling virtuous

[dave]

Question for the OP: you're soloing one evening at Stanage and you manage to get a random stuck nut or abandoned cam out of a crack (a fairly common occurrence if you go there). There's nobody else at the crag. You naturally take the nut/hex/cam home. By your standards you've just committed theft.

You seeing how this is bullshit yet?

[theemoominhunter]

Are you assuming Id do that Dave?

No need to get angry either

[theemoominhunter]

and why would you 'naturally' take the gear home?

[mrjonathanr]

It is interesting to see how people dress up taking something that doesn't belong to them it's really that simple.

Please reconsider.

It's abandoned on a lump of rock...there is no reason to be precious or perverse about it. As for them taking stuff you consider is still yours, they can with justification consider that you are littering a shared space which is most definitely theirs.

The ethics of crag booty have been around for years and I get it.

Obviously not.

The bottom line is that it's nice if people leave alone the kit you left behind, but you haven't really got any grounds for complaint if they don't.

[theemoominhunter]

Obviously. That's why I leave stuff alone

[Bonjoy]

It's not theft by virtue of it being the overwhelming consensus view that you relinquish ownership of a single biner left on a random bolt when you leave the crag. This being consensus is evidenced by everyone on this thread disagreeing with you. It's a fact that virtually everyone knows, understands and agrees with. It is agreed with because it makes perfect sense and keeps crags tidy. And so you loose a crab today, big deal, you pick up someone else's bail biner tomorrow.

Face it, you lost this argument a long time ago.

[theemoominhunter]

It wasn't an argument. If everyone else is happy to lift stuff then that's ok  I'll be sticking with my principles of leaving things as I find them even if it takes me another 20 mins to put a bina back.

Bet no one helps clean the crag tho

Bonjoy, if I loose a bina today, I'll not pinch someone else's tomorrow and face it, you failed to see the bigger picture.

I found a bet at eatswood a few years ago stuffed into a crack. Should I have 'cleaned' that away?

[theemoominhunter]

By bet I mean net

[TobyD]

I cant believe how would up you're getting about this krab. I'd have taken it. so would pretty much anyone. It's clearly not theft, anymore than picking up a tenner from a gutter on an empty street would be.

[theemoominhunter]

But that's the point, I'm not getting wound up.

[Stu Littlefair]

The thing I don't understand is that you obviously half expected to lose it, or you'd have left a draw in.


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[theemoominhunter]

The tenner from the gutter analogy doesn't hold water tho. It's more like a tenner left blue tacked to your front door

[theemoominhunter]

Stu, someone would have taken the draw

[rodma]

The tenner from the gutter analogy doesn't hold water tho. It's more like a tenner left blue tacked to your front door

No its like a 10mm diameter obstruction, that someone left in a hanger on I type I am trying to onsight, I can either clip into it, fiddle my draw in alongside it,take it out first and throw it at my belayer, or better still take it out and clip it on my harness. Christ that was some pumpy decision making.

Sardinia was awful for this. Some pretty run out routes on very polished rock, with loose bolts and i could barely squeeze my own draw in alongside the bail biners, which wasn't helped much by the spinning hangers. I didn't leave any ball bummers (SwiftKey did that not me ) on Sardinia at all for this reason, even though I used to in Britain, if (most usually when ) I got too scared to carry on, but I never really considered how shit it was for the next climber until I was in Sardinia.

If you are going to leave bail biners, leave them with an apologetic note. It's traddies that line fiddling around with shit on the lead, not sport chuffers

[andy popp]

It's more like a tenner left blue tacked to your front door

No, it just isn't.

[petejh]

For how long does your theft definition hold Themoominhunter?

It's just I've been waiting for the person who left these to come back for them but it's been twenty years now...



Don't want to be accused of stealing..

[mrjonathanr]

Edit:
I posted a sarcastic reply then thought better of it.

[dpb]

I wonder what the state of some routes/crags would be if every bail biner/draw/wire/cam/sling etc ever left insitu had always been left insitu on the off chance someone was coming back for them?

[Oldmanmatt]

Once accreted Bail Biners may only be removed by a BMC approved Palaeontologist... 


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[tomtom]

Once accreted Bail Biners may only be removed by a BMC approved Palaeontologist... 

I suspect a carbonate sedimentologist might be more use there... Or someone with a beard

[andy_e]

At what point does tat become part of the rock enough to count as a hold?

[petejh]

For me it's usually at the point of encountering the crux

[Oldmanmatt]

Often, if no-one's watching...


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[Will Hunt]

This thread is either a troll or else perhaps the OP has learning difficulties. I think their point has been adequately disproven some time ago. Anything more is gratuitous enjoyment of another's lack of mental faculty.

Lock and log.

[petejh]

...gratuitous enjoyment of another's lack of mental faculty.

Isn't that all of UKB? Half the reason for logging on is to laugh at someone (me) for being a fucktard and you'd have to lock n log all of Dense's posts.

[Bonjoy]

Bet no one helps clean the crag tho

You bet wrong, lots of folk on here take random litter away from the crag. There's a thread dedicated to it in fact. Me and Highrepute took six bin bags full away from crag X last month. How about you?

I found a net at eatswood a few years ago stuffed into a crack. Should I have 'cleaned' that away?

Mea culpa. You'd have done me a favour if you had.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Bet no one helps clean the crag tho

You bet wrong, lots of folk on here take random litter away from the crag. There's a thread dedicated to it in fact. Me and Highrepute took six bin bags full away from crag X last month. How about you?

So you were in on that too then John. Got to be +1 for that bit of crag stewardship!

 

[DDDD]

Just noticed this thread and it's good to hear that my views are echoed by what appears to be everyone as it's not something that gets discussed much, well if at all.

I'll have to own up to taking said biner from Step on It - a funky route - and would do so again if another is left on that particular bolt. If however a draw had been left on that bolt and the one above, then it would have been obvious that they had been left for a redpoint and I would have left them as the first three bolts can be easily clipped by aiding or with a stick clip.

If you want the biner back then no problem. I had been intending to leave it on the lower off of another route if I found one that needed it.

[theemoominhunter]

Thanks, leave it on a lower off.

At no point was I angry. Was just asking the question/starting a conversation about it.

Will Hunt, that wasn't a very nice thing to say was it?

[theemoominhunter]

I doubt any draws would have been left there, not referring to you DDDD.