[remus]

Bosi isn't going to proffer a downgrade because that would be like Messi turning up to a kid's football match and protesting to the ref that a goal was offside.

Gather around the fireplace and I will tell you the story of how Seb became the most notorious downgrader of Provance. When he was but a young boy he did a first ascent of a line that gave him much pride. The provençal elite at the time decided to cut him down a notch and all repeated his route and suggested a downgrade. Our young hero did not forget and did not forgive, and has since systematically suggested downgrade of every route 8c+ or harder that the old guard of Provence has ever ticked in all of Europe.

Seb's route from the time has been upgraded to its original grade in the latest topo.

This is all true by the way.

 

[Bradders]

Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

Amusingly I distinctly remember my first visit to Malham including a thought along the lines of "is this it"? 

Fucking hell. Boulderers, there's no hope!

The way everyone goes on about it I just thought it'd be bigger 

[36chambers]

Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

Amusingly I distinctly remember my first visit to Malham including a thought along the lines of "is this it"? 

Fucking hell. Boulderers, there's no hope!

The way everyone goes on about it I just thought it'd be bigger 

It feels much bigger when you have to do 10 moves for every metre of climbing

[iwasmexican]

Also, plenty of people with experience at the grade logging it at 8B https://www.8a.nu/crags/bouldering/united-kingdom/raven-tor/sectors/raven-tor/routes/keen-roof/

hardly any wads consistently downgrade things though, plenty only ever log the grade that's given (but say its the easier in the comments...)

[Teaboy]

I think we are way past the point of needing a topic split (if only to begin down grading all our festering grading resentments - starting with Brean Down in my case!)

If the split happens can we have an explanation of what this was as I missed it?

It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing.

[spidermonkey09]

I think we are way past the point of needing a topic split (if only to begin down grading all our festering grading resentments - starting with Brean Down in my case!)

If the split happens can we have an explanation of what this was as I missed it?

It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing.

Thats just my own hypothesis which is quite possibly bollocks, but the tldr would be that the 80s/early 90s period has retained an outsize/disproportionate importance in British climbing even 30 years later due to the size of the characters and egos involved at that time, combined with the rise of mags and comps etc as a way of publicising achievements. I'll try and flesh it out into something more coherent at some point but its not particularly relevant to Keen Roof, I was just adlibbing a bit.

[remus]

Thats just my own hypothesis which is quite possibly bollocks, but the tldr would be that the 80s/early 90s period has retained an outsize/disproportionate importance in British climbing even 30 years later due to the size of the characters and egos involved at that time, combined with the rise of mags and comps etc as a way of publicising achievements. I'll try and flesh it out into something more coherent at some point but its not particularly relevant to Keen Roof, I was just adlibbing a bit.

There were definitely some big characters, but the difficulty of what was being climbed and the style in which it was done also underwent a huge shift. In the early 80s stuff like Tequila Mockingbird was cutting edge at 7c+ (or E6 as it was given at the time), and by 1990 Ben had climbed Hubble and Jerry had done Liquid Ambar. Im sure bits and pieces have been exaggerated and gained inflated importance over the years, but overall I think it's hard to argue it wasn't a significant period in British climbing history, particularly through the lense of the modern climber.

[andy moles]

INNNNNDIANNNN FFFFFFFFAAAAACE 

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah I would never argue it wasn't very significant, it definitely was. But I do think it kind of grew a life of its own which detracted from celebrating British climbing in eg 2000s the way it perhaps should have been. We're only just beginning to appreciate how good McClure was/is now for example. Andy has eloquently summed up my views in his post   

This would be a good thread split.

[submaximal gains]

New one for the list, Dylan Soin with Isles of Wonder

[remus]

Good scoping, but think he should be on there already for that ascent.

[petejh]

Anyway, philosophical discussion aside, the concept of staying in ones lane and kowtowing to the opinion of "wads" is, imo, hierarchical nonsense. It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing. The info is there to be interpreted by those who wish to. From the info available, I'm perfectly comfortable saying if I was writing the guide it would be in at 8A+. You've got some guy on ukc who did it 6 sessions (should have been 4 apparently...) having never done an 8A before. Nah, sorry! Other views are of course valid (albeit wrong) 

I think what Will and Spider are saying is: climbers are incentivised by big grades^TM. Anyone who's climbed Keen Roof is incentivised in this way, ergo the only people able to objectively proffer a grade for Keen Roof are those who haven't done it. 


Also,

Anyway, philosophical discussion aside, the concept of staying in ones lane and kowtowing to the opinion of "wads" is, imo, hierarchical nonsense. It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing.

100%. Reminds me of something Grimer said on Jamcrack recently lamenting how climbing has lost its characters and 'narratives'. Maybe - but it also lost some cliqueness/sycophancy and gained some meritocracy.

[abarro81]

it also lost some sycophancy

10 minutes looking at comments  on insta should be enough to assure you this isn't as true as you'd like it to be!

[petejh]

Fair, I don't look at insta so unqualified to comment. The tribal force is a strong force!

[andy moles]

it also lost some sycophancy

10 minutes looking at comments  on insta should be enough to assure you this isn't as true as you'd like it to be!

Word. Revolting.

Never sure if this is a cynical get-more-followers ploy or it's just plain (common or garden) fawning.

[Steve R]

Good scoping, but think he should be on there already for that ascent.

Surely invalidated due to music (sort of) at the crag! 

[remus]

I was browsing this article on UKC https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/01/obituary_of_ian_cummins-72177 and it mentioned a climber called Nick Clement who was on the GB team and had bouldered 8B, any idea what the problem(s) might have been?

[Tom de Gay]

Anaesthesia, 2007, according to his ukc logbook

[remus]

Thanks! Can't believe I missed he had a UKC logbook, amatuer hour 

[mrjonathanr]

Thats just my own hypothesis which is quite possibly bollocks, but the tldr would be that the 80s/early 90s period has retained an outsize/disproportionate importance in British climbing even 30 years later due to the size of the characters and egos involved at that time, combined with the rise of mags and comps etc as a way of publicising achievements.

What’s missing here is the social context. Climbing and mountaineering in the uk wasn’t a culture of full timers totally focused on climbing without the need to work (or else like Victorian pioneers be incredibly privileged). There weren’t many Brown and Whillans about.

The  successive Thatcher governments monetary policy tolerated high levels of unemployment in pursuit of controlling inflation and social security allowed an underclass of full time climbers to thrive. This, more than anything else, drove the growth in grades.

As for behaviour, I remember the values of the decade  as frequently egotistical and generally quite ugly. Selfishness and arrogance were increasingly prevalent across society, albeit not without strong opposition.  YMMV.

Edit- typos on phone

[Ross Barker]

Hayato Furusugi has climbed The Ace

Edit: I see now he is Japanese, but London-based!

[remus]

Good spot, I've recorded his ascent but not added him to the list.

[Wellsy]

Is Jake Mason on the list? Think he's done The Ace

[chickencurry60]

Is Jake Mason on the list? Think he's done The Ace

Did you bother to check the list?
https://climbing-history.org/climber/1534/jake-mason

Never doubt the omniscient remus

[remus]

Is Jake Mason on the list? Think he's done The Ace

Did you bother to check the list?
https://climbing-history.org/climber/1534/jake-mason

Never doubt the omniscient remus

Ha, I'm definitely not omniscient. Suggestions always welcome!