[BrutusTheBear]

Very much the in vogue 8b down these parts.

Kyle's first 8b, him and Matt have been working it together.

Mikey Cleverdon repeated it in the autumn too and a visiting Dave Barrans (cruised it in very short time.. good/humbling to witness I'm still battling away with the 7c!)

[yetix]

Keen roof is 8A+ in the new peak bouldering guide apparently... Is the list about to get much shorter? 

[Duma]

Loool

[Wellsy]

The funniest change is Truffle Pig gets 6B+ now. Absolutely brutal.

[Dingdong]

The funniest change is Truffle Pig gets 6B+ now. Absolutely brutal.

Tbf that got downgraded like 8 months ago so not a surprise to most people lol

[Will Hunt]

Thoughts and prayers for Sisyphean Lattice staff who are now working overtime to come up with a Wannabe To 8B programme that will actually get the desperate Sheffield try-hards up an 8B.

The EA have just issued a flood warning as the River of Tears flowing through the streets is threatening to breach the levees of the Sheaf and Porter Brook.

[Dingdong]

Thoughts and prayers for Sisyphean Lattice staff who are now working overtime to come up with a Wannabe To 8B programme that will actually get the desperate Sheffield try-hards up an 8B.

The EA have just issued a flood warning as the River of Tears flowing through the streets is threatening to breach the levees of the Sheaf and Porter Brook.

You sound more salty than the people who’ve climbed keen roof mate 

[Will Hunt]

The only thing I'm salty about is people targeting patently misgraded climbs (you see it in trad and sport too) so that they can claim to have climbed a particular grade.

[Ross Barker]

Some data nerds (Remus!) should make a graph of the rate of logged ascents of given climbs over time, with markers indicating when the grade was officially reduced, and maybe also when beta videos were publicised, to locate the point at which the softie chasers identified their target.

[Dingdong]

The only thing I'm salty about is people targeting patently misgraded climbs (you see it in trad and sport too) so that they can claim to have climbed a particular grade.

Climbing something that is soft for the grade to try and work towards breaking through into a new grade isn’t unheard of. Ok so it’s soft, why has it taken 7 years or however long since the last guidebook to “confirm” this?

You can’t blame people if the majority are saying it’s a certain grade and then you have 5 wads saying it’s soft. Maybe if we’re going by majority voting then it’s not soft? I don’t have much of a stake in it personally as I’m not even close to climbing those sort of grades, but seems pretty reductive to just say it’s people trying to grade chase as if you haven’t probably done the same but with easier grades 

P.s. please consider the fact that not everyone is 6 foot and can lank the fuck out of it?

[abarro81]

I don't disagree with Keen going down to 8A+, but the idea that it was "patently misgraded" at 8B doesn't really hold much weight given that some people who've done loads of 8Bs think it's 8B  that doesn't mean it is necessarily 8B, but it does mean it's not "patently misgraded"

[Will Hunt]

The only thing I'm salty about is people targeting patently misgraded climbs (you see it in trad and sport too) so that they can claim to have climbed a particular grade.

Climbing something that is soft for the grade to try and work towards breaking through into a new grade isn’t unheard of. Ok so it’s soft, why has it taken 7 years or however long since the last guidebook to “confirm” this?

You can’t blame people if the majority are saying it’s a certain grade and then you have 5 wads saying it’s soft. Maybe if we’re going by majority voting then it’s not soft? I don’t have much of a stake in it personally as I’m not even close to climbing those sort of grades, but seems pretty reductive to just say it’s people trying to grade chase as if you haven’t probably done the same but with easier grades 

P.s. please consider the fact that not everyone is 6 foot and can lank the fuck out of it?

Trying something that's soft is very different from trying something that's had kneebars added to it bringing the grade down.

When looking at grade votes on these things which are popular easy target, a lot of the votes confirming 8B/7a/7A/whatever are from the people for whom the climb represents their only tick of the grade, thus they have the most to lose by a downgrade (and also the least experience of the grade).

[remus]

Keen roof is to UKB as three pebble slab is to UKC.

Also, plenty of people with experience at the grade logging it at 8B https://www.8a.nu/crags/bouldering/united-kingdom/raven-tor/sectors/raven-tor/routes/keen-roof/

[Dingdong]

Yes but don’t you guys know? Will absolutely and positively KNOWS that they’re all taking 8B cause they want to inflate their egos or something along those lines  you should go get it done and let us know if it’s 8B will.

Definitely has nothing to do with the climb being morpho or anything lmao

[spidermonkey09]

 Ok so it’s soft, why has it taken 7 years or however long since the last guidebook to “confirm” this?

You can't have it both ways. If it had only been a year since the last guide you'd be saying it wasn't enough time to have a consensus. 7 years is plenty, and there are comments saying it was 8A+ basically from when knee pads became widely used. One even suggests 8A!

Also “grade votes" are bollocks and if that's the best argument for it being 8B it should be downgraded on the spot. You and I can go and vote on them and we haven't climbed it! By a distance the dumbest, most reductive feature of ukc.

Remus is right, this discussion is endlessly hilarious and I'm here for it. Perhaps ascentionists should unionise and picket the UKC offices.

[Dingdong]

 Ok so it’s soft, why has it taken 7 years or however long since the last guidebook to “confirm” this?

You can't have it both ways. If it had only been a year since the last guide you'd be saying it wasn't enough time to have a consensus. 7 years is plenty, and there are comments saying it was 8A+ basically from when knee pads became widely used. One even suggests 8A!

Also “grade votes" are bollocks and if that's the best argument for it being 8B it should be downgraded on the spot. You and I can go and vote on them and we haven't climbed it! By a distance the dumbest, most reductive feature of ukc.

Remus is right, this discussion is endlessly hilarious and I'm here for it. Perhaps ascentionists should unionise and picket the UKC offices.

The guide book point was tongue in cheek. Why is the rockfax guidebook or even ukc the end all of grading anyways. Like you said the voting feature is dumb as fuck as anyone can vote grades and even bin vote stuff when they haven’t stepped within 5km of it 

But we can look at multiple sources (ukc, 8a.nu, Instagram green ticks) and see that there are numerous wads including Bosi who have taken 8B for it, I find it laughable that Will Hunt even has an opinion on whether something is 8B, I prefer to stay in my lane and let people who climb those grades hash it out among them, even if someone has gone to do it cause it’s a bit soft what does that matter, they’re still climbing much harder than most of us are and could probably do it even without kneepads. Also going back to what I said before, the problem is quite lankable and I feel like you can’t take an 8B from someone if they can’t lank the shit out of it because to them it’s probably still felt 8B.

Finally, what about all the mega beasts who are obviously WAY stronger than the problem. We can look at Mr Palmieri who pretty much cruises every climb from 8A to 8B, can his gradar even really be trusted? 

Can yours… -looks into camera-

[Fultonius]

Grade fight, grade fight 

[Will Hunt]

Every time I've met Jack he's mentioned that he hasn't got a clue about grades any more.

Bosi isn't going to proffer a downgrade because that would be like Messi turning up to a kid's football match and protesting to the ref that a goal was offside.

I have considered going to the Snore to climb Keen Roof but it would end my 30-something year streak of not visiting the crag. Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

[Dingdong]

Every time I've met Jack he's mentioned that he hasn't got a clue about grades any more.

Bosi isn't going to proffer a downgrade because that would be like Messi turning up to a kid's football match and protesting to the ref that a goal was offside.

I have considered going to the Snore to climb Keen Roof but it would end my 30-something year streak of not visiting the crag. Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

Yeah my point made then. How can we trust the mega wads!

Also Bosi is out and about downgrading everyone’s projects, he’s no stranger to upsetting the kids!

[spidermonkey09]

To my knowledge there is no other up to date guide to peak bouldering than ukc/rockfax? So I guess that's why they are considered the final word on grading, if only by default.

They exist precisely to get rid of the tiresome bollocks of "taking" a grade for something. To butcher the meme, one does not simply give the problem the grade one likes. The problem is graded and everyone gets in line and accepts it, or teeth are gnashed and in time it goes up or down until the wailing and gnashing is minimised.

Anyway, philosophical discussion aside, the concept of staying in ones lane and kowtowing to the opinion of "wads" is, imo, hierarchical nonsense. It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing. The info is there to be interpreted by those who wish to. From the info available, I'm perfectly comfortable saying if I was writing the guide it would be in at 8A+. You've got some guy on ukc who did it 6 sessions (should have been 4 apparently...) having never done an 8A before. Nah, sorry! Other views are of course valid (albeit wrong) 

[Bradders]

Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

Amusingly I distinctly remember my first visit to Malham including a thought along the lines of "is this it"? 

[spidermonkey09]

Also, I can get to Malham in 35 minutes. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever driven past Malham and gone "that can't be it, can it?"

Amusingly I distinctly remember my first visit to Malham including a thought along the lines of "is this it"? 

Fucking hell. Boulderers, there's no hope!

[Dingdong]

To my knowledge there is no other up to date guide to peak bouldering than ukc/rockfax? So I guess that's why they are considered the final word on grading, if only by default.

They exist precisely to get rid of the tiresome bollocks of "taking" a grade for something. To butcher the meme, one does not simply give the problem the grade one likes. The problem is graded and everyone gets in line and accepts it, or teeth are gnashed and in time it goes up or down until the wailing and gnashing is minimised.

Anyway, philosophical discussion aside, the concept of staying in ones lane and kowtowing to the opinion of "wads" is, imo, hierarchical nonsense. It's how we ended up with the cult of the 80s in British climbing. The info is there to be interpreted by those who wish to. From the info available, I'm perfectly comfortable saying if I was writing the guide it would be in at 8A+. You've got some guy on ukc who did it 6 sessions (should have been 4 apparently...) having never done an 8A before. Nah, sorry! Other views are of course valid (albeit wrong) 

Grades are very subjective a lot of the time though. I understand the need for them as a vague guide as to the difficulty of the climb but a lot of the time that’s all they are.

10 people can have very different experiences on a climb and depending on soooo many variables such as height, weight, size of their pinkies, length of shins, whether mercury is in retrograde can all have effects on the perceived grade. I personally don’t believe in grades and think they’re a load of bollocks but I get why people like them.

How can you have an opinion on the grade of something you’ve not even seen in person  I understand a general consensus might guide your opinion but what if that opinion is also 50/50?

Also that guy (Henry) who did it in 6 sessions has climbed like 6 8As, and 8A+ since then and regularly crushes classics on the school room board so not exactly like he wasn’t strong enough to do it

[jwi]

Bosi isn't going to proffer a downgrade because that would be like Messi turning up to a kid's football match and protesting to the ref that a goal was offside.

Gather around the fireplace and I will tell you the story of how Seb became the most notorious downgrader of Provance. When he was but a young boy he did a first ascent of a line that gave him much pride. The provençal elite at the time decided to cut him down a notch and all repeated his route and suggested a downgrade. Our young hero did not forget and did not forgive, and has since systematically suggested downgrade of every route 8c+ or harder that the old guard of Provence has ever ticked in all of Europe.

Seb's route from the time has been upgraded to its original grade in the latest topo.

This is all true by the way.

[Will Hunt]

How can you have an opinion on the grade of something you’ve not even seen in person

This is just how incredible I am at downgrading now. When you've been downgrading as long as I have, and not just casually but really committing to the grind, you don't even need to remember climbing something to downgrade it - in fact, you needn't have seen it at all.

I've been training my downgrading so hard that my brain is now like a mathematical grading model. I input the data I find on UKC - the number of ticks compared to other climbs of the same grade at the crag, the voting, the comments, who's ticking it, what crag it's at - and my brain just spits out the correct grade. Some nights when I'm well recruited I'm downgrading 50 Peak classics in a session. I once made a University of East Anglia minibus turn around on the M1 when they saw what I'd done to their goals for the weekend.

You too can learn this power, but are you prepared to put in the graft?