[Schnell]

http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/the-economics-of-training.html

Read this awhile ago and was struck by the attempt to set very specific training objectives. I wonder what people think of the targets set in the table? I'm impressed by the dedication to applying one's academic background to every sphere of activity in life displayed here.

Obvious flaws include a) the lack of a climbing grade/target for which the weights described/targets are strong 'enough.' I would have thought proper hardcore boulderers could one arm an edge for example, which isn't implied in being able to hang bodyweight x 0.8 on a 18mm edge. b) not sure why women are regarded as requiring a lesser level of strength given we all climb the same rocks and all targets are set in relation to bw anyway c) the use of mad german(?) terminology to denote strength levels, though maybe there's a reason for this.

Anyway it's a good opportunity to brag about what I can do and totally neglect to mention what I can't. So thats...
- above average (fullsterkur) for benchpress, push ups and plank (two of which are considered not that important anyway)
- average(halfsterkur) (on a good day) at pull-ups,
- below average at crimping and deadlifting
- never tried pinch strength, mid two, push press and backsquat,

Any thoughts on how the depth of holds, 18mm edge and 25mm flat pocket translate to a Beastmaker? Sounds like the small bottom rung crimps and the shallower of the two two finger pockets but I've never actually measured.

[Muenchener]

The terms are something along the lines of Icelandic/Old Norse, Steve is trying to sound all Viking & macho.

(He was on the training beta podcast recently; worth a listen)

A small campus rung is about 18mm (total thickness including the radiused bit) if that helps.

[petejh]

Economists refer to this ... as the opportunity cost of the action.  If you skip a day of work to go climbing then the opportunity cost of that day of climbing is equal to the value of what you could’ve earned at work that day.  When it comes to physical training the opportunity cost concept becomes very important due to the fact that we have a limited amount of recovery ability (let’s call this recovery capital to keep with the economics theme) that can be applied to the training session.  The opportunity cost of doing a pull-up workout for example, is the training value lost to not doing a bouldering workout.  There is always some diminishment of recovery capital every time we do some sort of high intensity exercise.  An appropriately designed training program will not eliminate the opportunity cost effect but it can work with the effect to reduce the impact on training.

Reading a bit about opportunity cost at the moment (Misbehaving, highly recommend it) and this description sounds a little vague. The opportunity cost of skipping a day's work to go climbing isn't just a day's lost pay, but the perceived 2nd best option in terms of utility out of all the millions of things that give you utility and which you had the opportunity of doing with the day, other than work or climbing.

And the opportuntiy cost of doing x workout instead of y workout is the value of the 2nd most useful workout which had to be missed in favour of the most useful workout. That's 2nd most useful in the context of knowing exactly your physical make-up and weaknesses compared to desired goals etc.

Both the above scenerios assume that the fallible human is an machine-like rational economic agent capable of quickly and accurately identifying the two most favorable options, in terms of the utility they give, out of millions of options.

Basically work your weaknesses, nothing new.

[abarro81]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

[TobyD]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

if only we were all terminators and could run a quick system diagnostic to know whether to have another redpoint or go to the pub

[TheTwig]

Evaluating the best option is always the hard part! E.g. if you're a bit tired - to climb or to rest? Always wish there were a crystal ball to look in...

if only we were all terminators and could run a quick system diagnostic to know whether to have another redpoint or go to the pub

^ this. I would love some kind of /rundiognostic function as I contemplate just one more boulder at the wall

[Schnell]

Just need to sign up with these guys: http://kitmanlabs.com/press. They've been doing well in the Irish rugby world.

[Rocksteady]

Seems to me the relative difficulty level is a bit off on bench press? 15 reps at bodyweight is pretty beast and he's got it down as average? Respect to Schnell for beast strength for beating that.

I reckon I know 2-3 people who could do 15 reps bench press at bodyweight, and they would 1RM at 2x bodyweight, which is massively hench. He's got it in the same band as 2x bodyweight 1RM deadlift. Likewise 40 press ups and 20 pull ups to me seem way easier than 15 reps at bodyweight bench?

When I was doing quite a lot of bench press (when I used to do MMA, before climbing) I think my best was 12 reps at bodyweight (75kg at the time). This equated to around 1.5x bodyweight 1RM bench press. Around that time I could also do 100 press ups. 

I guess if the benchmark he's using is athletes it's probably different - the average climber I doubt would get anywhere near this measure?

[petejh]

Also doesn't say if the pull-ups are overarm or underarm. Bit of a difference.

[Schnell]

Seems to me the relative difficulty level is a bit off on bench press? 15 reps at bodyweight is pretty beast and he's got it down as average? Respect to Schnell for beast strength for beating that.

I reckon I know 2-3 people who could do 15 reps bench press at bodyweight, and they would 1RM at 2x bodyweight, which is massively hench. He's got it in the same band as 2x bodyweight 1RM deadlift. Likewise 40 press ups and 20 pull ups to me seem way easier than 15 reps at bodyweight bench?

Hm, regarding my being surprisingly good at benchpressing, could have something to do with my bad posture and weak back, so a mixed blessing. I'm also better at doing more reps at lower weight than fewer and heavier, eg there's no way I could IRM 2xbw.

Generally I agree that the stats are a bit all over the place. He does admit they're based on limited observation. I get the impression, mostly based on listening to the trainingbeta podcasts, that lots of US climbers are more into weight lifting and such than people round these parts so possibly also skewed by that.

[Rocksteady]

Think you're right that there is more of a weight-lifting culture in US climbing - maybe because their climbing mecca is Yosemite which I think repays being physically strong all round rather than the traditional UK grit and North Wales focus, which are all about climbing skill and brutal finger strength.

Just seems to me that, just in my personal experience, I could do 20 pull ups with little or no training, could build up to 40 press ups within a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months, a few months to 2xbw deadlift, - but 15 reps at bodyweight bench press was something I never did despite doing bench press at least once a week for several years. Seems a funny idea of average!

[a dense loner]

15 reps at bodyweight average, utter nonsense! There's nothing else to say on that.

[jwi]

15 reps at bodyweight average, utter nonsense! There's nothing else to say on that.

+1
I'd pay good money like to see Sashi Amma or Adam Ondra do 15 reps of bw benches. Madness.

Who would do bench press in a general conditioning program for climbing anyway?

[spam]

I  think15x bw would be totally average if you cared at all about bench press and did it once a week for a month or two. For one of the names you dropped that's probably a whopping 50 kg... C'mon, for sure he could do it!

[Muenchener]

But why would a climber, for any climbing related reason whatsoever, care about bench pressing?

[webbo]

Big tits.

[Muenchener]

I'd accept not wanted a physique like Patxi's as a valid general argument, but it's still only related to climbing performance in a strictly negative sense.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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[tomtom]

Big tits.

There's specialist underwear for this. Or surgery of you have more cash.

[webbo]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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This is bollocks Mat, you would need your legs vertical for the weight to be similar then it would be a shoulder press. I've done body weight plus bench press in the past, however at the moment not having done any weights for months I'd be way off. But I reckon I could do 30ish press ups with out any build up most of the time.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, a body weight BP is pretty average and 15 reps is not excessive.
If you can crank out the press ups (especially with your legs raised) it should be quite easy.
It's also quite a suitable Antagonist exercise to those 1xBW pull ups and rows...


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This is bollocks Mat, you would need your legs vertical for the weight to be similar then it would be a shoulder press. I've done body weight plus bench press in the past, however at the moment not having done any weights for months I'd be way off. But I reckon I could do 30ish press ups with out any build up most of the time.

Ah hah!
 But you are wrong! [emoji13]

No, seriously it's not. I can give you the numbers, because we have covered this at work (a body weight gym with no suitable bench).

Let me use subject 1, an 84kg male, ageing and a little flabby at the waist, as an example...

With legs raised to the gym bench (just like the ones you remember from school), his body is ~horizontal and (within a gnats taddger) 67kg of his overall weight is transferred through his arms at full extension and ~70kg at full dip.

Despite not having done any bench press for some considerable number of years, subject one was quite able to add 27kg (aka one smallish 9year old child) to his shoulders and complete 20 reps.

Subject 1's normal press up routine would be 5x20, standard position.






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[Oldmanmatt]

Just had breakfast and not in anyway warmed up...
But here's 3 as further evidence.




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[Rocksteady]

Hmmm. I don't know, when I worked part-time in a gym as a student I reckon the average was more like 6-8 reps at bodyweight.

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/tools/bench-press-calculator

This 100% scientifically accurate calculator seems to return 15 reps at bodyweight to a 1 rep max of around 1.5x bodyweight. My one rep max was 1.5x bodyweight when I could do 10-12 reps at bodyweight. Maybe I just have bad power endurance then.

Anyway, haven't bothered with bench press for years. Not sure it would give any useful transferable strength for climbing.

[a dense loner]

Matt that's the most bullshit set of posts I've seen for a long time. I reckon hardly anyone I know could do 3 BW presses, the list of people that couldn't do one would take up too much time to go into. In fact most people couldn't do 15 press ups

[hamsforlegs]

Benchpress is one of those weird exercises that some people find natural and others struggle with. I'm reasonably strong, but have never been able to get to grips with it. I've always thought that 1.5xBW is a good 'strong enough' measure for health and general living, but I don't think it adds much to climbing.

At the end of the day the question of 'specificity' is a nonsense. Specific is climbing something. Everything else is on a spectrum from 'sort of specific' to 'totally unrelated'. You end up making vague handwaving gestures about whether a particular standard indicates a kind of general strength that can be translated to some kind of performance.

If you want to pursue that line of thinking, have a look at Dan John's work on this:
http://danjohn.net/2013/04/strength-standards-sleepless-in-seattle/
He sets out standards in lots of different movements and at various threshholds from 'basically functional', to 'high school sports' to 'game changer' (ie where someone might be capable of state or national level competitive performance.

You can get all of his standards in a spreadsheet:
danjohn.net/wp-content/uploads/Strength-Standards.xlsx

He's focused more on throwing and on sports such as wrestling, 'Mercan football, but I think the whole point is that these are fairly widely applicable things for coaches to work on with athletes. Not so much a prescription but a way of spotting someone's relative strengths and weaknesses.