If this size and angle edge was on a fingerboard and I was statically hanging it I know I'd have no problem, It's just actually using it and moving with it in a climbing context.
My guess...Quote from: Luke Owens on June 16, 2015, 12:03:32 pmIf this size and angle edge was on a fingerboard and I was statically hanging it I know I'd have no problem, It's just actually using it and moving with it in a climbing context.Start training on your board at pulling up on these edges rather than just hanging. You'll then find that you can pull and move on such holds outside.
Anyone else had this problem?
Not sure if anyone has experienced this but I've noticed I am stronger open handed than half/full crimped on edges while deadhanging, quite noticeably stronger. Yet I can't seem to "use" open hand or open crimp grip when I'm climbing. I feel strong while hanging open handed or slightly crimped but If I try and pull up/lock off or anything other than holding a static position when I'm out on the rock it just doesn't feel secure or strong at all so I end up crimping near enough everything.Is this just in my head and I just need to force myself to open hand holds to get used to it? I've noticed this recently more so as a route I've been trying has slopey decent size (30mm) edge and I just can't use it at all and end up using the very edge of it crimping some spikey horrible bit just to make some sort of progress.
Took me ages to get used to, a lot of it is technique and being able to stay under the holds and where possible move around them rather than straight past them (if that makes sense!)
I think you feel strong on an openhand grip when deadhanging, because you're actually relying more on your tendons to hang on and muscles don't play such a big part in it. It also explains why a lot of people are stronger on openhand deadhangs than in a crimped or half-crimped position, because their supportive structure (tendons and such) does most of the work. Strength gains on an openhand grip might be mostly neurological (maybe some muscular changes but not that much) which is why so many people plateau after a few weeks of hangboarding. Tendons (and other non-muscular supportive structure) can apparently adapt to exercise but those adaptations take a very long time.
This is all wrong by the way.
QuoteThis is all wrong by the way.Ok, maybe a full crimp would rely more on supportive structure than I stated. But otherwise, care to explain?
Just from a logical point of view, force has to be produced by a muscle, i.e. it is the structure generating the contraction. Tendons are just the anchors allowing the force to be transferred across a joint angle. The only thing changing with different grip types is the the angle of your hand/fingers on the rocks, and how much skin is in contact.
QuoteJust from a logical point of view, force has to be produced by a muscle, i.e. it is the structure generating the contraction. Tendons are just the anchors allowing the force to be transferred across a joint angle. The only thing changing with different grip types is the the angle of your hand/fingers on the rocks, and how much skin is in contact.Force is actually produced by muscle and tendon in concert. Read this, it's very interesting: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7From a logical point of view most of the prescribed hangboard programs don't make sense if you only look at muscles. 1. they are far too short to cause physiological muscle adaptationsA lot of training-programs prescribe a hangboard phase of 3 - 6 weeks. This is very short for muscle adaptations. No weightlifter would train a lift for 4 weeks and then stop training it because he would know that his muscles only just started to adapt to the training.2. plateaus come pretty quicklyusually when starting a hangboard phase I see huge gains for a few workouts, but after the 10th workout or so I can't improve anymore -> those huge gains in the beginning point to neurological adaptations3. isometrics are not great for building muscleThe muscles responsible for contracting your fingers/hands are mostly in your forearms. Climbers argue that climbing loads the fingers isometrically and therefore they should be trained with isometrics (hangs). This makes no sense if you think only stronger muscles will make you stronger. Isotonic contractions are better suited for muscle growth than isometrics, so why wouldn't you train your forearms with isotonic contractions (heavy grippers, wrist curls...)? Because it doesn't work for climbing!Why? Because you don't train your finger tendons with those exercises. (Arguments about joint angles and such are worthless because an isotonic contraction trains all joint angles -> if you can do a 1-arm pull up you can do a 1-arm lock-off)I think tendon-strength and other supportive-structure actually plays a huge role in how much weight you can hang.
Perhaps ask Steve about what was presented at the BMC injury symposium...QuoteAt the BMC injury symposium, at last, the answer to the mystery. How come some people can hang on tiny crimps but don't have amazing finger strength? I fit into this category, hang me off a campus rung and I'm nothing special, but on a 5mm razor at Ravenstor and I do OK. Its all to do with the finger pulp, the stuff between skin and bone, with studies showing strength on small holds is not dependent on strength measured in standard ways. This pulpy stuff is developed over years, basically by pulling on bits of rubbish. So there you go, forget the campusing!They are as always with this sort of study small sample sizes so caveat emptor, but If you read the abstracts you might find them to have some potential use...Amca AM, Vigouroux L, Aritan S, Berton E. (2012) Effect of hold depth and grip technique on maximal finger forces in rock climbing. J Sports Sci. 30(7):669-77. doi: 10.1080/02640414.2012.658845. Epub 2012 Feb 17.The aim of this study was to understand how the commonly used climbing-specific grip techniques and hold depths influence the finger force capacities. Ten advanced climbers performed maximal voluntary force on four different hold depths (from 1 to 4 cm) and in two force directions (antero-posterior and vertical) using three grip techniques (slope, half crimp and full crimp). A specially designed platform instrumented with a 6-degrees-of-freedom (DoF) force/torque sensor was used to record force values. Results showed that the maximal vertical forces differed significantly according to the hold depth and the grip technique (ranged from 350.8 N to 575.7 N). The maximal vertical forces increased according to the hold depth but the form of this increase differed depending on grip technique. These results seemed to be more associated with finger-hold contact/interaction than with internal biomechanical factors. Similar results were revealed for antero-posterior forces (ranged from 69.9 N to 138.0 N) but, it was additionally noted that climbers have different hand-forearm posture strategies with slope and crimp grip techniques when applying antero-posterior forces. This point is important as it could influence the body position adopted during climbing according to the chosen grip technique. For trainers and designers, a polynomial regression model was proposed in order to predict the mean maximal force based on hold depth and adopted grip technique.Quaine F, Vigouroux L, Paclet F, Colloud F. (2011) The thumb during the crimp grip. Int J Sports Med. 32(1):49-53. doi: 10.1055/s-0030-1267230. Epub 2010 Nov 17.During rock-climbing, fingers grasp holds of various shapes with high force intensities. To ideally place the fingertips on the holds, the thumb is sometimes positioned on the nail of the index finger. This allows using the thumb as an additional actuator by exerting a supplementary force in the same direction as the index, middle, ring and little fingers. This study analysed how the forces exerted by the fingers are modified by the additional action of the thumb. The results showed that the thumb increases the resultant forces exerted on the hold. It was shown that the pathology risks of the middle, ring and little fingers were not modified in this condition. The finger force sharing was totally re-organized due to the support of the thumb. This led to the conclusion that the central nervous system organised the association of the 5 fingers. The results were discussed in regard to the established theories of the virtual fingers and the neutral line of the hand.This one may be what Steve is talking about...Bourne R1, Halaki M, Vanwanseele B, Clarke J. (2011) Measuring lifting forces in rock climbing: effect of hold size and fingertip structure. J Appl Biomech. 27(1):40-6.This study investigates the hypothesis that shallow edge lifting force in high-level rock climbers is more strongly related to fingertip soft tissue anatomy than to absolute strength or strength to body mass ratio. Fifteen experienced climbers performed repeated maximal single hand lifting exercises on rectangular sandstone edges of depth 2.8, 4.3, 5.8, 7.3, and 12.5 mm while standing on a force measurement platform. Fingertip soft tissue dimensions were assessed by ultrasound imaging. Shallow edge (2.8 and 4.3 mm) lifting force, in newtons or body mass normalized, was uncorrelated with deep edge (12.5 mm) lifting force (r < .1). There was a positive correlation (r = .65) between lifting force in newtons at 2.8 mm edge depth and tip of bone to tip of finger pulp measurement (r < .37 at other edge depths). The results confirm the common perception that maximum lifting force on a deep edge ("strength") does not predict maximum force production on very shallow edges. It is suggested that increased fingertip pulp dimension or plasticity may enable increased deformation of the fingertip, increasing the skin to rock contact area on very shallow edges, and thus increase the limit of force production. The study also confirmed previous assumptions of left/right force symmetry in climbers.
At the BMC injury symposium, at last, the answer to the mystery. How come some people can hang on tiny crimps but don't have amazing finger strength? I fit into this category, hang me off a campus rung and I'm nothing special, but on a 5mm razor at Ravenstor and I do OK. Its all to do with the finger pulp, the stuff between skin and bone, with studies showing strength on small holds is not dependent on strength measured in standard ways. This pulpy stuff is developed over years, basically by pulling on bits of rubbish. So there you go, forget the campusing!
Random thought on this. Use your thumb. ALOT. theres almost always a thumbs catch of some type. find and use ones that force your hand more open. It's hard to describe, but it seems like having the thumb on(sort of crappy pinching) makes it easy to maintain the correct hand position on the hold, thereby making it less likely to pop off whilst moving feet/body and such.