[Sasquatch]

There are a plethora of shoe threads discussing what people like across different rock types, models, how they fit, and their individual preferences.  Everyone one of these seems to skip the value in understanding what grade you're using them on, much like was discussed about training a while back.  There are always exceptions to the rule, but my hope is to help others understand why you see the patterns you do, and help make your own decisions on usefulness.

As Nibs said -

Using Ondra as a reference is completely useless, given that he does something completely different from what we do. 

 

 I've had an ongoing debate with a partner about this very thing for 15 months.  He's stuck on Anasazi Velcros, and just has never really understood that they are limited at a certain point.  His long-term goal is to break into the 8a range, with his current hardest at 7b+.  He's finally started getting on 7c+ and 8a’s and getting on 7B+ boulders and has just started to realize that his shoes do limit him.  He's never felt limited on lower stuff, but now he is seeing the light.  Trying to understand this better myself, I'm curious if others have found this as well. 

For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate.  The “sharp” edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different.  You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe.  Same thing across all rock types, angles, styles, etc.  As the grades get higher, what you need from a shoe is VERY different. 

So I'd be curious as to a more detailed explanation of where shoes excel for certain individuals.  I'll start this off.  I've narrowed my shoes down to 3 main shoes that I use, for mainly bouldering and high end sport indoor and outdoor – Miura VS, Old Solution, and Instinct VS.  (disclaimer-I have a very wide foot, and cannot fit any new 5-10 or evolve models)

Miura VS – Go to shoe for warming up.  Lose out at limit outside (v9-v12) on steep toe pulling and standing on “shit” feet to the Instincts and Solutions. I find the greater downturn of those two (the solution and instint vs) helps focus power to the big toe which is the only thing engaged on “shit” feet.  Outside this is my almost always go to all around shoes, but not in the gym.  The gym walls are almost always steeper than what i get on outside, and as such, a shoe such as the solutions or instinct vs will almost always outperform these in the gym.  Add in that you rarely ever have to truly smear, and it's kind of obvious why.  I'd say once you're at about v5, and 5.11ish(7a?) in the gym, the more aggressive shoes will start to perform better. 

Old Solution – Great for steep pulling, and “shit” feet.  Not as good on pockets and narrow slots.  Struggle to get toe in narrow slots so have to edge oddly, which turns foot out of optimal position and can be limiting.  Also not as good on bigger edges and feet.  Makes you want to always stand on big toe, which isn't optimal on longer routes at more reasonable grades.  80-120feet vertical-ish routes in the under 8a range I would guess these are not so good.  Above 8a, I'd guess they'd start to do well again, as the feet become shittier.  Crap heel for marginal heel hooks(only ever really found these on 7B or higher stuff) as too firm/stiff, but they have an awesome heel for painful pointy/spike heels due to firmness. 

Instinct VS.  –  Current go to shoe for all projects/performance.  These are much like the old solution, but with a softer heel - basically the opposite heel from the solution.   Overall the instinct edges well, but can struggle with really small smedges as they are quite stiff.  Not quite as good as the Solutions in this regard, although they don't really seem any stiffer than the solutions to me, so I'm not sure why. 

Where I came from –

Anasazi Velcro– Limited pulling power, designed to stand on your feet. I find they really fail at about steep 7B and steep 8a range.  Still good for hard face climbing up to generally mid 8’s.  Once I was bouldering harder and tried out the Miura vs’s, I've never looked back as I think the Miura’s pretty much do everything better. 

Miura Lace - Similar to Anasazi Velcro, but slightly downturned toe at outset helped retain shape over life of shoe. 

Boreal Stinger – Loved em.  First downturned shoe and went through several years, particularly once they were resoled w 5-10 rubber.  No need to discuss as they don't make em anymore. 

Boreal Laser - 

[kelvin]

After five pairs of Evolv Bandits and various resoles, I can safely say that they have the sensitivity of Keith Richards discussing his father's ashes with his mother.

[Muenchener]

I'll bite. Onsight around 6b/c, just moving into the low-to-mid 7's redpointing. Basically Miura Laces were the first good shoes I got when I resumed climbing after a break of over a decade, and it was love at first sight. Wear them for most things.

For redpointing on limestone, even at the modest grades I operate at, I feel a difference with Testarossas. Noticeably more power and precision on smaller edges, especially on the outside edge.

Indoors: Pythons. My feet can't be made to go into Solutions, Futuras or Speedsters, somehow the wrong shape.

Comfy shoes for long multipitch: haven't found anything really satisfactory yet. Plan to experiment with slightly larger than usual Miuras this summer.

I can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)

For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate.  The “sharp” edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different.  You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe. 

Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.

[Sasquatch]

I can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)

Do you find the same thing bouldering?  I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.

For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate.  The “sharp” edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different.  You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe. 

Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.

Interesting.  We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects.  I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge.  This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile.  That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable. 

[Muenchener]

I can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)

Do you find the same thing bouldering?  I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.

Tbh I barely boulder outdoors.  With family, work, and decent rock being a bit of a drive away, I don't get out as much as I would like and when I do I prefer to do routes.

[ghisino]

I'm a shoe fetishist so I'll try to narrow things down...

Grades: Sport 7a-8a, font 7's.

Solution:agree but find em good on pockets.

I'll add a couple of esoteric shoes.

EB hulk.
a very good pocket shoe, especially on shorter steeper routes. It excels at letting you stuffing your big toe deep into pockets and pull yourself in.
Also very good for any kind of scumming/twisting/jamming as they are a very soft shoe.
Very pointy shape, no asymmetry, extremely tensioned/downturned.
Ok heel.
On less steep ground they are not supportive enough for long thin pitches, but will do well on smedges.
Overall the shoe I've been most successful with, when sport climbing.
As the size of footholds diminishes they become a difficult shoe, they will do the job but require a lot of precision and toe strength.
It somehow lacks something in font, or font lacks pockets?
Also,not very good rubber and gets used quickly as you frontpoint everything ( edges are useless on this shoe)


Wildclimb mangusta.
Somehow reminiscent of a lasportiva shape and feel...a weird "supportive slipper" whose front section does everything fairly well except for microedging and delicate smearing...
It pulls well on the steep, especially on small but positive features. Very good indoor shoe.
It was also impressive in buoux.
Downside: Wide heel.

For bouldering I use futuras and new pinks, mostly. I need good heels, one shoe that pushes well on grattons, and another that smedges on nothing...

[Johnny Brown]

I'm in a bit of a strange position here as I don't climb hard by modern standards, but on footwork orientated problems on grit I often burn off folk who do. The 8s I've done have not been boot dependent. I've also got very wide feet. Even the hardest grit smearing slabs are <7C and fine in velcros. On those with more defined (i.e smaller) holds I prefer arrowheads, which are very soft but amazingly good for smedging. On quarried/ edgey stuff a stiffer boot with harder rubber can be helpful, but to be since the arrowheads came out I've never bothered. I have fairly short toes, which I assume are stronger than most after twenty years standing on pebbles.

Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.

Interesting.  We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects.  I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge.  This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile.  That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable. 

I haven't done much on slate, just onsighting the classic E5s and seconding an E6, but I'd be tempted to agree with Sasquatch. Box-fresh shoes have never worked for me for tiny edges - the edge is too prone to roll off. On longer slate routes I can imagine the rigidity of a new boot is less painful, but for me I find the feedback you get from a soft shoe means I climb quicker anyway.

Caff did the Meltdown in Chilis, didn't he? So boots maybe not as crucial as you think!

[kelvin]

Do you find the same thing bouldering?  I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.
 

I think it's safe to assume that I'm far and away the worst climber on here but generally, my footwork's neat and tidy and what shoe I'm wearing can make all the difference between failure and success. Even in the low to mid 6s, french or Font. Maybe that means my general technique is below average? I guess it's possible I don't weight/trust my feet enough to make them really secure on holds but I used to spend ages pinging off some moves before realising I just had the wrong shoe on (for me).


I've been playing on the grit for the last 6 months or so in Bandits, up to English 6a but have tried seconding 6b, and a couple of weeks back decided to invest in a pair of Anasazi velcros... fuck me, the difference is immense. I can actually smear on fuck all.

On slate up to E3/6b, good edges make things a lot easier and 5.10 blancos feel like cheating.

I recently bought Instinct slippers for sport and the extra feel over the Bandits has meant I can actually feel what I'm standing on and therefore smears feel much more secure and I'm happier to weight my feet, therefore get less pumped...


A punter's opinion I know and hardly relevant to what you lot get up to but anyone who says shoes don't make a difference is relying on their fingers and arms too much. I'm really weak and don't have that option.

[Nibile]

 
Sasq, you're a mean mean person. Your topic made me want to check one of the boxes in which I throw my worn out climbing shoes, and I unleashed a demon.
I've had so many different shoes, you name 'em, I've had 'em, from high-ankle One Sport borrowed from a friend, to Mythos, to Stinger, to Kendo, to Laser, to Mantra, to Pinks, to Hulks, to Dragon, Team, Solution, Indo, Wild Climb, etc. etc...
I pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy.
I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.

[iwasmexican]

I swapped from mainly using anasazis of various types a year or two back to mainly using the pythons and noticed a massive difference, if anything purely with the rubber being massively stickier. pretty much only use them now, not really being able to afford being able to experiment too much with other shoes.

despite the pythons being a big step up from the anasazis though I do still love the anasazi heel: works like a skyhook when you get the right jagged heel placement outside, most of the hardest things I've done outside have been solely down to exploiting this.

also think the old blue teams had the best heels ever but reckon this is more down to foot size than anything else.

[Muenchener]

So you still haven’t got the hang of using the front part of your foot? 

[ghisino]

Nibs, i wonder if i have the largest collection, or you.

How many pairs do you currently own?
How many models?

[Nibile]

 
In use at the mooment:
- 2 pairs of Wild Climb for my board;
- Speedster and Team for other people's boards or climbing gyms;
- Dragon, Team, Solution, Hornet and Green for rock.

I suspect that Rich Crouch could have a larger collection, given that he works in V12 and can have them for cheap.

[ghisino]

In use:
-hulks for sport
-comfy pinks for mp/trad
-moccs for cracks/mp/easy multipurpose
-futuras and pinks for bouldering
-resoled whites, galileos, nepas, quechuas(found) for warm up and gym.
-vapour s and quantums currently being resoled plus one wildclimb being repaired.
-hiangles broken in, essential new, trying to sell them (feel they might be a good multipurpose shoe but got em insanely small. Not convinced as,performance shoe)

Not in use, saved for the one time,in my life ill go to majorca do some dws:
-2 wildclimbs
-2 katanas

For mardi gras:
-ninjas (found)

For special applications:
-solution, left foot only

[Muenchener]

I thought I was bad. Apparently not.

- Miura Laces old
- Miura Laces new
- Miura Laces large, in the process of being  broken in for summer alpine outings
- Testarossas – couple of years old, carefully saved for serious redpoint attempts
- Pythons
- Cobras – very cheap in an outlet shop, sufficiently similar to Pythons, current indoor shoe
- Boosters – old, knackered but not thrown out, might still have a few wall sessions left in them
- Boldrini something or others - ditto

I also recently found a rucksack full of stuff from The Old Days in my brother’s attic in Manchester. Present were: Lasers, Blue Ballets (great slate shoe, see Stone Monkey), Megas, some early model La S slippers (Viper/Venom?). All sadly totally worn out & holed, and boy did I wear them tight in those days. Could barely get my feet into the Lasers. Didn’t keep any of them.

[blamo]

Sportiva Pythons -  steep (cave) climbing and gym climbing
Sportiva Testarossas - technical sport climbing and projecting
Sportiva Miura VS or Solutions - bouldering indoor or outdoor
5 10 Hiangle - I have yet to find a use for these, they are awful
Sportiva Cobras - thin cracks
Evolv addict - medium to wide cracks
Tenya Ra or inti - trad climbing that is not pure crack climbing

I have found the shoe (within the same class of down-turned type models) to be less important than the relative condition.  Mine go through three phases: brand new and just barley broken in (reserved for projects), broken in with a good edge (reserved for quality outdoor climbing), and resoled or a rounded edge (warming up and gym climbing).

[ghisino]

I agree that the relative condition of the shoe can sometimes be more important than the model.

[Sasquatch]

I pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy.
I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.

Though you deserve a puntering for ever forgetting. 

I love training, but there's nothing that compares to real rock...

[Sasquatch]

Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.

Interesting.  We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects.  I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge.  This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile.  That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable. 

I haven't done much on slate, just onsighting the classic E5s and seconding an E6, but I'd be tempted to agree with Sasquatch. Box-fresh shoes have never worked for me for tiny edges - the edge is too prone to roll off. On longer slate routes I can imagine the rigidity of a new boot is less painful, but for me I find the feedback you get from a soft shoe means I climb quicker anyway.

Caff did the Meltdown in Chilis, didn't he? So boots maybe not as crucial as you think!

So this is part of what I wanted this thread to discuss.  I think the stiff edging shoes are only good up to a point, then they cease to be the best option.  If you aren't aware of this you become limited by the wrong shoe choice. 

[Nibile]

I pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy.
I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.

I'm going climbing tomorrow, my elbows will thank me!

[Nibile]

Bottom line: I have a fetish for climbing shoes that I don't know how to use at their best. But I still haven't started to wear them accordingly to my outfit, so maybe there's still hope. In the end, I can't campus every problem, can I?

[Muenchener]

So this is part of what I wanted this thread to discuss.  I think the stiff edging shoes are only good up to a point, then they cease to be the best option.  If you aren't aware of this you become limited by the wrong shoe choice.

For several weeks Miura Laces were the only shoes in which 9b+ had ever been climbed.

[cha1n]

I think people can do well in whatever shoe depending on how long they've been climbing in them. Look at all the hard stuff Pete Robbins has done in greens and Ned doesn't seem to be held back by his VCS either.I wish I could have started climbing in VCS and then I wouldn't know any better as they are really comfy and you know five ten will never stop making them.

I started climbing in Evolv Defys and they are almost roll up in your hand soft after a few weeks so I've always liked having feedback from my shoes, unfortunately I have really long toes, so that means really tight shoes are required! To be honest, I've worn far to many different pairs of shoes and I think I could climb the same grade in any of them but I'd just rather not do that all the time.

For steep ground I think a softer shoe with a downturn is better to allow you to pull-in more with your feet and a stiffer shoe for more vertical and slabby terrain. It's hard to find a shoe that smears and edges well, which is sort of what's necessary on the limestone here. I'm experimenting with the instinct VS at the moment which seems to have a good compromise of stiffness but they aren't great at smearing yet but they aren't really broken in.

I think you can get away with a really soft shoe when bouldering regardless of the angle as you don't have to stand on your feet for as long. In general I think you want to go as soft as you can stand with climbing shoes. My speedsters are excellent all-rounders but I tried using them on 25m limestone trad routes the other day and they were killing my feet as I was standing around in them for so long. In that situation a stiffer shoe is better but you have to sacrifice sensitivity.

[abarro81]

Honestly, I have no clue what on earth this thread is on about. I have shoes I like for different things, but kinda struggle to see what you're getting at with regards to grades? E.g. Booster S I like for steep shit pulling with your feet, but instinct lace is better edging shoe thus is better at Malham irrespective of whether I'm climbing on a 6c or an 8c.

[Sasquatch]

It may be just me then, but I find that shoe functionality changes as I progress through different grades as the footholds change in nature and get progressively smaller/worse. 

[abarro81]

Yeah, I don't think I find that, personally I think shoes are good/bad at particular things, or on particular moves, irrespective of the grades.

[ghisino]

It may be just me then, but I find that shoe functionality changes as I progress through different grades as the footholds change in nature and get progressively smaller/worse.

It could depend on the kind of rock?

Eg in font you can find the same kind of small yet sharp gratton, where a stiff shoe might work well, across a broad range of grades.

[Sasquatch]

perhaps.  On my home granite for example, the problems in the v4-v7 range typically have small nubbins or edges to stand on.  The same holds apply to the v9-v12 stuff, but now the rock is steeper, so you can't stand on them changing the need from a shoe.  The stiffer shoe which worked fine at v4-v7 is much worse at the harder grades.  They can still be used, but they are not optimal anymore.  Not sure if that applies at Font.

[moose]

Aye, I did most of my hardest bouldering (F7b+ to F7c, not hard by any great standards admittedly) in a pair of very old, one size too big Verdes (bought originally with multi-pitch trad in mind) - baggy as hell but smeared brilliantly on slopey grit (and they were the only lace-ups I owned, so I had to use them on anything I had to heel-hook on).  I still do most of my bouldering in Anasazi VCSs which aren't entirely dissimilar.  Now I mainly climb limestone sport, I largely wear Miura VCSs - just that bit stiffer and more precise on the little sharp nubbins of Malham, whilst still decent smearers once broken in.   That said, I recall seeing photos of Steve McClure on Overshadow or Rainshadow in Verdes, so I suspect my old choice of shoes was not limiting.

[Jaspersharpe]

Undone Dragons on everything ftw.

[Nibile]

Undone Dragons on everything ftw.

Where's my Between the Trees copy?

[Johnny Brown]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

[tc]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

For me, that was the 5.10 Galileo, which they have now stopped making just to piss me off.

[Muenchener]

Unimaginatively I just bought a pair of Muira Lace-Ups half-a-size bigger than normal, to be my longer-route-shoe for this summer.

Me too. I tried a full size up in the shop but they were obviously going to end up as clown shoes so I stuck with half a size. Wore them for an entire twelve pitch rainy afternoon at the wall last weekend as the breaking in campaign; seemed to be ok.

[Offwidth]

I think it's safe to assume that I'm far and away the worst climber on here

Bollocks.

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

[jwi]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

+1

But that also depend on the rock. On 5.11 slabs & cracks I already found my shoe. On 7a thin limestone, not so. Miuras with socks is closest.

[Muenchener]

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

Perhaps you overlooked the bit where the OP was talking about differences in shoe requirements between ca 7b and ca 8b? You might not need technical shoes on bumbly grades like 7b, but I confess I do.

[Sasquatch]

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

I agree that 75-90% of climbers fall into this category.  Almost none of whom are on this forum.  They also don't train, and don't really care to climb harder.  This post certainly wasn't intended for them. 

Perhaps you overlooked the bit where the OP was talking about differences in shoe requirements between ca 7b and ca 8b? You might not need technical shoes on bumbly grades like 7b, but I confess I do.

This is part of what I'd hoped would come out of this.  Much like certain training techniques really only start to be applicable beyond a certain point, I think the same appies for shoes.  Just using top climbers as a guide is a recipe for disaster, same thing often with peers as their goals/strengths may not apply.  I've got a friend who still swears by moccasyms for gym climbing and climbs in the 7b range.  Sure they have been worn for climbing 5.14 before, but do you anyone climbing aywhere near that grade still wearing them?  no.  And for a good reason.

[Offwidth]

Im sure there are more than you think, especially those who lurk and don't post. Anyhow since when did UKB become intolerant of segues. The advice also works for proper UKB folk having a big easy mountain day. I remember the revelation of seeing a german mate's shoe collectiom for the first time (about 20 years ago) he had several types in several stages of wear for various types of hard trad, various types of sport and easy use.

[Sasquatch]

Back on topic.

Re: Understanding Differences in Shoes at Different Climbing Difficulty

Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy.

So what you're saying is that people operating below "x" should be looking for comfort with thin socks. 

The advice also works for proper UKB folk having a big easy mountain day.

Or that comfort and thin socks are ideal for a big easy mountain day?  or both? 

I'd agree with either of those, and they help further the discussion rather than adding little by stating "most climbers don't need technical shoes at all", and then going off on sales people.   

Im sure there are more than you think, especially those who lurk and don't post. Anyhow since when did UKB become intolerant of segues.

Not intolerant at all, just recognizing that at least 75% of the people who I know who climb (both indoors and out) either can't be bothered to learn or care to learn what/how to get better including shoe choice.  By default, I'd say the lurkers can be bothered since they found this forum, and hence are not part of that 75%. 

And I LOVE Segues.  They're so fun to ride. 

[Duma]

I read offwidths post as we should be grateful to the bumblies buying overly technical shoes as otherwise there wouldn't be enough demand to drive the variety we have to choose from, and makes threads like this possible :-)

[lagerstarfish]

thinking about the complexity of shoe choice/market combined with the baffling new information about energy systems, I realize that I have no idea about modern climbing

[Offwidth]

...going off on sales people.

When I was kit sec for my uni club about half the beginners who were not babysat ended up with inappropriate shoes. Sometimes too tight, sometimes too technical, sometimes both. Having a good relationship with the local store managers I usually helped get them changed (a bit like their dad). SInce I gave up, being too busy on guidebook stuff, I still see beginners being sold shoes which are unsuitable on a fairly regular basis. The staff doing this need better training or more honesty.

[Stu Littlefair]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

[slackline]

thinking about the complexity of shoe choice/market combined with the baffling new information about energy systems, I realize that I have no idea about modern climbing

But you retain oodles of technique, as evidenced in your videos so you've nothing to worry about.

[Offwidth]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

You can't buy planks with shit rubber and I can't remember the last time you could (other than that odd shop in Bethesda that until about 10  years ago that had those weird baseball boot style things) . By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technicaly specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

[Muenchener]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

You're in good company.

The earlier in your climbing career you move to a well fitting performance shoe, the less bad habit accumulation you will have to undo and he deeper and wider your footwork repertoire will become.

Sort it now

[Stu Littlefair]

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technicaly specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time

That's true, and I think we both agree that it would be a bad idea to start in dragons or Futuras.

But I wouldn't wish any of these shoes on my worst enemy, as an example

http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/evolv-defy-vtr-p-57.html

[Sasquatch]

...going off on sales people.

When I was kit sec for my uni club about half the beginners who were not babysat ended up with inappropriate shoes. Sometimes too tight, sometimes too technical, sometimes both. Having a good relationship with the local store managers I usually helped get them changed (a bit like their dad). SInce I gave up, being too busy on guidebook stuff, I still see beginners being sold shoes which are unsuitable on a fairly regular basis. The staff doing this need better training or more honesty.

I'll grant there are many sales people who know cack about climbing shoes.  Unfortunately this is common, and you're correct that it is a problem. How to solve that issue is unknown to me..
 

You can't buy planks with shit rubber and I can't remember the last time you could (other than that odd shop in Bethesda that until about 10  years ago that had those weird baseball boot style things).

Stu beat me to it, but unfortunately there are still quite a few of these.  Has Boreal actually improved their rubber?  Last I tried was about 4-5 years ago and it was still pretty shit.  Glassed up way quick which then made for crap inside shoes. 

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

I think the price issue is actually a real problem.  As Stu mentions, the Miura VCS or Lace are a great shoe at any level.  Beginner to advanced.  You may size them a touch smaller as you get better and want more precision, but the original more comfortable version are very applicable for Big Mountain Day^TM climbing. 

[Muenchener]

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

I took a brand new pair of Miura Laces, that I bought half a size up from my normal size as long route shoes for the summer, to the wall last weekend for a breaking in session. Wore them all afternoon (except the coffee break) and my feet felt absolutely fine.

[cha1n]

But I wouldn't wish any of these shoes on my worst enemy, as an example

http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/evolv-defy-vtr-p-57.html

Oi, I started climbing in Evolv Defys and had very good footwork! Or are you referring to the smell?

[moose]

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.
Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

Very much +1.  When I first started, I was persuaded by a sales assistant that a pair of Boreal clogs were perfect for beginners.  I am sure that their lumpen lack of feed-back hindered my development of footwork - if you can't sense what you're doing, how can you link it with any success?  Worst thing was that they lasted bloody ages!  It wasn't until I bought a pair of decent shoes (Miura lace-ups or Katanas I think) that I realised the incredible gains from the most subtle of movements - how a tiny twist of the ankle can transform the feasibility of a move.  And, the surprising thing for me was, that these "performance" shoes were more comfortable than my Boreal coal-barges.

[joel182]

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

I think the price issue is actually a real problem.  As Stu mentions, the Miura VCS or Lace are a great shoe at any level.  Beginner to advanced.  You may size them a touch smaller as you get better and want more precision, but the original more comfortable version are very applicable for Big Mountain Day^TM climbing. 

For a lot of people, just getting them in shoes where they are actually fitting vaguely well enough is a challenge - I think it's easy for people who have been climbing a while to forget how adapted their feet are to being in climbing shoes, and that a lot (most?) first time shoe-buyers wouldn't be able to deal with a properly downturned shoe.

[Offwidth]

For a lot of people, just getting them in shoes where they are actually fitting vaguely well enough is a challenge - I think it's easy for people who have been climbing a while to forget how adapted their feet are to being in climbing shoes, and that a lot (most?) first time shoe-buyers wouldn't be able to deal with a properly downturned shoe.
[/quote]

Experiences here are also very biased towards those who took up performance climbing (my bias is the opposite, from 15 years in a student club helping new climbers). Many beginners stop after a while and plenty just bumble around (the average lead grade on UKC forums is HS). The range of shoes is also a problem... not many shops hold a really good range so the best fit in the shop might not be anything like the best fit available. The biggest problem in mis-selling is the undersizing to new climbers (as, they are told, thats what all climbers do) with a result that they can only wear the shoes for a few minutes at a time... this is potentially reallly damaging to their feet.