Using Ondra as a reference is completely useless, given that he does something completely different from what we do.
For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The “sharp” edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe.
I can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)
Quote from: Sasquatch on May 07, 2015, 07:18:48 pmFor example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The sharp edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe. Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.
For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The sharp edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe.
Quote from: Muenchener on May 07, 2015, 08:32:16 pmI can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)Do you find the same thing bouldering? I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.
QuoteVery good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he. Interesting. We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects. I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge. This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile. That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable.
Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.
Do you find the same thing bouldering? I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.
I pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy. I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.
Quote from: Sasquatch on May 07, 2015, 09:10:26 pmQuoteVery good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he. Interesting. We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects. I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge. This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile. That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable. I haven't done much on slate, just onsighting the classic E5s and seconding an E6, but I'd be tempted to agree with Sasquatch. Box-fresh shoes have never worked for me for tiny edges - the edge is too prone to roll off. On longer slate routes I can imagine the rigidity of a new boot is less painful, but for me I find the feedback you get from a soft shoe means I climb quicker anyway.Caff did the Meltdown in Chilis, didn't he? So boots maybe not as crucial as you think!
Quote from: Nibile on May 07, 2015, 10:48:32 pmI pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy. I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.
So this is part of what I wanted this thread to discuss. I think the stiff edging shoes are only good up to a point, then they cease to be the best option. If you aren't aware of this you become limited by the wrong shoe choice.