Using Ondra as a reference is completely useless, given that he does something completely different from what we do.
For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The “sharp” edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe.
I can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)
Quote from: Sasquatch on May 07, 2015, 07:18:48 pmFor example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The sharp edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe. Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.
For example, I'd hazard a guess that climbing 7a-7b on slate is very different than climbing 8b-8c on slate. The sharp edges of slate probably stop being the crux feet on the 8b-8c stuff and you're very likely on tiny smeary features rather than strictly edges and therefore need something different. You need a smedging shoe, not an edging or smearing shoe.
Quote from: Muenchener on May 07, 2015, 08:32:16 pmI can actually get up more or less anything to within about half a grade of my max in more or less any shoes. Sure, crappy or unsuitable shoes might not feel secure, but - at the grades I'm operating at - they do actually still work. (I'm well aware that this probably means I'm not climbing remotely as close to my actual physical limit as people who climb harder.)Do you find the same thing bouldering? I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.
QuoteVery good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he. Interesting. We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects. I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge. This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile. That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable.
Very good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he.
Do you find the same thing bouldering? I think Sport at the mid grades can be more forgiving of shoe choice if you have better than average technique.
I pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy. I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.
Quote from: Sasquatch on May 07, 2015, 09:10:26 pmQuoteVery good post generally but actually no on that particular point, according to what Calum Muskett told me when I did a coaching session with him a while back. Strictly fresh sharp edges and old-school tight for The Medium (8a) and upwards sez he. Interesting. We got a small wall of slate here with a few hard lines and a couple of projects. I find that on the 7b-7c routes the edging is key, but on the 8b line and projects, the edges are the easy feet, and you need something the can "smedge" far more, so you need an odd blend of stiff and fresh, yet soft and slightly rounded edge. This is the one local place where I can see the "edgeless" shoes being worthwhile. That said, this slate wall is mostly underclings and diagonal sidepull/underclings, with most of the downpulling edges quite sizeable. I haven't done much on slate, just onsighting the classic E5s and seconding an E6, but I'd be tempted to agree with Sasquatch. Box-fresh shoes have never worked for me for tiny edges - the edge is too prone to roll off. On longer slate routes I can imagine the rigidity of a new boot is less painful, but for me I find the feedback you get from a soft shoe means I climb quicker anyway.Caff did the Meltdown in Chilis, didn't he? So boots maybe not as crucial as you think!
Quote from: Nibile on May 07, 2015, 10:48:32 pmI pulled them out of the box and could remember problems and projects that I climbed with basically every model, the emotions and the joy. They are worn and patched up, and they left my fingers chalked up and grippy. I will never forgive you for making me remember how fucking awesome climbing on rock is, and how fucking much I fucking miss it.
So this is part of what I wanted this thread to discuss. I think the stiff edging shoes are only good up to a point, then they cease to be the best option. If you aren't aware of this you become limited by the wrong shoe choice.
It may be just me then, but I find that shoe functionality changes as I progress through different grades as the footholds change in nature and get progressively smaller/worse.
Undone Dragons on everything ftw.
Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!
Unimaginatively I just bought a pair of Muira Lace-Ups half-a-size bigger than normal, to be my longer-route-shoe for this summer.
I think it's safe to assume that I'm far and away the worst climber on here
Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.
Perhaps you overlooked the bit where the OP was talking about differences in shoe requirements between ca 7b and ca 8b? You might not need technical shoes on bumbly grades like 7b, but I confess I do.
Back on topic.
Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy.
The advice also works for proper UKB folk having a big easy mountain day.
Im sure there are more than you think, especially those who lurk and don't post. Anyhow since when did UKB become intolerant of segues.
...going off on sales people.
thinking about the complexity of shoe choice/market combined with the baffling new information about energy systems, I realize that I have no idea about modern climbing
I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree. I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit). If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one. Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.
The earlier in your climbing career you move to a well fitting performance shoe, the less bad habit accumulation you will have to undo and he deeper and wider your footwork repertoire will become.Sort it now
By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technicaly specialised than the base starter shoes of the time
Quote from: Sasquatch on May 12, 2015, 04:56:45 pm...going off on sales people.When I was kit sec for my uni club about half the beginners who were not babysat ended up with inappropriate shoes. Sometimes too tight, sometimes too technical, sometimes both. Having a good relationship with the local store managers I usually helped get them changed (a bit like their dad). SInce I gave up, being too busy on guidebook stuff, I still see beginners being sold shoes which are unsuitable on a fairly regular basis. The staff doing this need better training or more honesty.
You can't buy planks with shit rubber and I can't remember the last time you could (other than that odd shop in Bethesda that until about 10 years ago that had those weird baseball boot style things).
By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.
But I wouldn't wish any of these shoes on my worst enemy, as an examplehttp://www.bananafingers.co.uk/evolv-defy-vtr-p-57.html
If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one. Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.
QuoteBy technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.I think the price issue is actually a real problem. As Stu mentions, the Miura VCS or Lace are a great shoe at any level. Beginner to advanced. You may size them a touch smaller as you get better and want more precision, but the original more comfortable version are very applicable for Big Mountain DayTM climbing.