[abarro81]

Yeah, I don't think I find that, personally I think shoes are good/bad at particular things, or on particular moves, irrespective of the grades.

[ghisino]

It may be just me then, but I find that shoe functionality changes as I progress through different grades as the footholds change in nature and get progressively smaller/worse.

It could depend on the kind of rock?

Eg in font you can find the same kind of small yet sharp gratton, where a stiff shoe might work well, across a broad range of grades.

[Sasquatch]

perhaps.  On my home granite for example, the problems in the v4-v7 range typically have small nubbins or edges to stand on.  The same holds apply to the v9-v12 stuff, but now the rock is steeper, so you can't stand on them changing the need from a shoe.  The stiffer shoe which worked fine at v4-v7 is much worse at the harder grades.  They can still be used, but they are not optimal anymore.  Not sure if that applies at Font.

[moose]

Aye, I did most of my hardest bouldering (F7b+ to F7c, not hard by any great standards admittedly) in a pair of very old, one size too big Verdes (bought originally with multi-pitch trad in mind) - baggy as hell but smeared brilliantly on slopey grit (and they were the only lace-ups I owned, so I had to use them on anything I had to heel-hook on).  I still do most of my bouldering in Anasazi VCSs which aren't entirely dissimilar.  Now I mainly climb limestone sport, I largely wear Miura VCSs - just that bit stiffer and more precise on the little sharp nubbins of Malham, whilst still decent smearers once broken in.   That said, I recall seeing photos of Steve McClure on Overshadow or Rainshadow in Verdes, so I suspect my old choice of shoes was not limiting.

[Jaspersharpe]

Undone Dragons on everything ftw.

[Nibile]

Undone Dragons on everything ftw.

Where's my Between the Trees copy?

[Johnny Brown]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

[tc]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

For me, that was the 5.10 Galileo, which they have now stopped making just to piss me off.

[Muenchener]

Unimaginatively I just bought a pair of Muira Lace-Ups half-a-size bigger than normal, to be my longer-route-shoe for this summer.

Me too. I tried a full size up in the shop but they were obviously going to end up as clown shoes so I stuck with half a size. Wore them for an entire twelve pitch rainy afternoon at the wall last weekend as the breaking in campaign; seemed to be ok.

[Offwidth]

I think it's safe to assume that I'm far and away the worst climber on here

Bollocks.

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

[jwi]

Choosing boots for hard moves is easy compared to finding a boot that you can climb 5.11 in all day without being crippled. The holy grail!

+1

But that also depend on the rock. On 5.11 slabs & cracks I already found my shoe. On 7a thin limestone, not so. Miuras with socks is closest.

[Muenchener]

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

Perhaps you overlooked the bit where the OP was talking about differences in shoe requirements between ca 7b and ca 8b? You might not need technical shoes on bumbly grades like 7b, but I confess I do.

[Sasquatch]

Back on topic. Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy. On the performance end, climbers get better variety and deals because bumblies are buying the things in error out of fashion and dodgy sales practices.

I agree that 75-90% of climbers fall into this category.  Almost none of whom are on this forum.  They also don't train, and don't really care to climb harder.  This post certainly wasn't intended for them. 

Perhaps you overlooked the bit where the OP was talking about differences in shoe requirements between ca 7b and ca 8b? You might not need technical shoes on bumbly grades like 7b, but I confess I do.

This is part of what I'd hoped would come out of this.  Much like certain training techniques really only start to be applicable beyond a certain point, I think the same appies for shoes.  Just using top climbers as a guide is a recipe for disaster, same thing often with peers as their goals/strengths may not apply.  I've got a friend who still swears by moccasyms for gym climbing and climbs in the 7b range.  Sure they have been worn for climbing 5.14 before, but do you anyone climbing aywhere near that grade still wearing them?  no.  And for a good reason.

[Offwidth]

Im sure there are more than you think, especially those who lurk and don't post. Anyhow since when did UKB become intolerant of segues. The advice also works for proper UKB folk having a big easy mountain day. I remember the revelation of seeing a german mate's shoe collectiom for the first time (about 20 years ago) he had several types in several stages of wear for various types of hard trad, various types of sport and easy use.

[Sasquatch]

Back on topic.

Re: Understanding Differences in Shoes at Different Climbing Difficulty

Most climbers dont need technical shoes at all and should be going for comfort with thin socks to keep their feet healthy.

So what you're saying is that people operating below "x" should be looking for comfort with thin socks. 

The advice also works for proper UKB folk having a big easy mountain day.

Or that comfort and thin socks are ideal for a big easy mountain day?  or both? 

I'd agree with either of those, and they help further the discussion rather than adding little by stating "most climbers don't need technical shoes at all", and then going off on sales people.   

Im sure there are more than you think, especially those who lurk and don't post. Anyhow since when did UKB become intolerant of segues.

Not intolerant at all, just recognizing that at least 75% of the people who I know who climb (both indoors and out) either can't be bothered to learn or care to learn what/how to get better including shoe choice.  By default, I'd say the lurkers can be bothered since they found this forum, and hence are not part of that 75%. 

And I LOVE Segues.  They're so fun to ride. 

[Duma]

I read offwidths post as we should be grateful to the bumblies buying overly technical shoes as otherwise there wouldn't be enough demand to drive the variety we have to choose from, and makes threads like this possible :-)

[lagerstarfish]

thinking about the complexity of shoe choice/market combined with the baffling new information about energy systems, I realize that I have no idea about modern climbing

[Offwidth]

...going off on sales people.

When I was kit sec for my uni club about half the beginners who were not babysat ended up with inappropriate shoes. Sometimes too tight, sometimes too technical, sometimes both. Having a good relationship with the local store managers I usually helped get them changed (a bit like their dad). SInce I gave up, being too busy on guidebook stuff, I still see beginners being sold shoes which are unsuitable on a fairly regular basis. The staff doing this need better training or more honesty.

[Stu Littlefair]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

[slackline]

thinking about the complexity of shoe choice/market combined with the baffling new information about energy systems, I realize that I have no idea about modern climbing

But you retain oodles of technique, as evidenced in your videos so you've nothing to worry about.

[Offwidth]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

You can't buy planks with shit rubber and I can't remember the last time you could (other than that odd shop in Bethesda that until about 10  years ago that had those weird baseball boot style things) . By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technicaly specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

[Muenchener]

I quite strongly disagree with the premise that beginners don't need technical shoes. Well, I admit that I can't get really worked up about it, but I do disagree.

I do think beginners should prioritise comfort, but many technical shoes are perfectly comfortable, and offer ample support (Miura VCS for example, if they fit).

If you start climbing in baggy, board lasted planks with shit rubber on (I'm talking about you, EB) then all you're doing is teaching yourself shit footwork from day one.

Instead I'd recommend all beginners to find a good high end stiffer shoe that fits well, and don't size them too small.

You're in good company.

The earlier in your climbing career you move to a well fitting performance shoe, the less bad habit accumulation you will have to undo and he deeper and wider your footwork repertoire will become.

Sort it now

[Stu Littlefair]

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technicaly specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time

That's true, and I think we both agree that it would be a bad idea to start in dragons or Futuras.

But I wouldn't wish any of these shoes on my worst enemy, as an example

http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/evolv-defy-vtr-p-57.html

[Sasquatch]

...going off on sales people.

When I was kit sec for my uni club about half the beginners who were not babysat ended up with inappropriate shoes. Sometimes too tight, sometimes too technical, sometimes both. Having a good relationship with the local store managers I usually helped get them changed (a bit like their dad). SInce I gave up, being too busy on guidebook stuff, I still see beginners being sold shoes which are unsuitable on a fairly regular basis. The staff doing this need better training or more honesty.

I'll grant there are many sales people who know cack about climbing shoes.  Unfortunately this is common, and you're correct that it is a problem. How to solve that issue is unknown to me..
 

You can't buy planks with shit rubber and I can't remember the last time you could (other than that odd shop in Bethesda that until about 10  years ago that had those weird baseball boot style things).

Stu beat me to it, but unfortunately there are still quite a few of these.  Has Boreal actually improved their rubber?  Last I tried was about 4-5 years ago and it was still pretty shit.  Glassed up way quick which then made for crap inside shoes. 

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

I think the price issue is actually a real problem.  As Stu mentions, the Miura VCS or Lace are a great shoe at any level.  Beginner to advanced.  You may size them a touch smaller as you get better and want more precision, but the original more comfortable version are very applicable for Big Mountain Day^TM climbing. 

[Muenchener]

By technical I mean things a lot more expensive and technically specialised than the  base starter shoes of the time. Climbing shoes should obviously never be baggy but should be comfortable for several hours use for a beginner.

I took a brand new pair of Miura Laces, that I bought half a size up from my normal size as long route shoes for the summer, to the wall last weekend for a breaking in session. Wore them all afternoon (except the coffee break) and my feet felt absolutely fine.