[blackhole]

If you wander a little bit away from the climbing areas at Bamford, left end of Stanage and Derwent edge you might find yourself in an area full of wire snares.  Several runners have been injured here. Also a lot of dead Mountain Hares - are they being killed deliberately? See news article. Bob Berzins.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32503789?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default

[andy_e]

I doubt the snares were left there accidentally, so I would hazard a guess that yes, they are being killed deliberately, probably because they eat the same stuff as those precious flying money bags, the grouse chicks 

[horn]

Hi Bob, in the article she says "the snared areas are marked on a map made available to the Dark Peak Fell Runners." Is this true and if so would you mind sharing it on here so we know which areas to avoid.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

From the link above.

Caroline Hanson from the Moscar Estate, which owns the land, said:

"It's such a tricky issue," she told BBC News.
"This is the first moorland stop as you leave Sheffield, and so there are a lot of urban foxes present. We have to snare in order to keep fox numbers down. It's not just about red grouse; many other bird species benefit.
"Without snaring, birds such as lapwings and curlews would suffer. This area has the highest European designation for wildlife. We spend a lot of time trying to get this right, and we do a lot to encourage multi-access, including restoring footpaths."

How hollow does that sound? I'm presuming Moscar Estate are therefore also responsible for commissioning the recent works at Derwent.

[dave]

Presumably these urban foxes are hopping on the bus to get out there, or do they flag down a taxi?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

From the link above.

Caroline Hanson from the Moscar Estate, which owns the land, said:

"It's such a tricky issue," she told BBC News.
"This is the first moorland stop as you leave Sheffield, and so there are a lot of urban foxes present. We have to snare in order to keep fox numbers down. It's not just about red grouse; many other bird species benefit.
"Without snaring, birds such as lapwings and curlews would suffer. This area has the highest European designation for wildlife. We spend a lot of time trying to get this right, and we do a lot to encourage multi-access, including restoring footpaths."

How hollow does that sound? I'm presuming Moscar Estate are therefore also responsible for commissioning the recent works at Derwent.

Anyone interested in the effect of predator control on other birdlife may be interested in the following study:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2664.2001.00597.x/full

Without reading this in full, this doesn't intend to address the impact of various methods of predator control on Foxes, Mountain Hare or other birds of prey. I wanted to post this in balance to my own prejudiced response.

[blackhole]

Re: map of snared areas - the landowner supplied the running club with a map, but said this was only to be printed (in a newsletter). They did not want it published online, seems they are worried about people tampering with the snares. The map is inaccurate anyway as it doesn't show all the snares on their land. I'll contact the BMC and ask their opinion. I completely agree - people need to know where these snares are found. But as I've found with the runners its difficult to remember this in 6 months or a year when you are out there for a run or walk. For me, the only proper solution is for the snares to be removed. Get back to you soon, Bob.

[mrjonathanr]

Is this CROW land? Would it not be an offence to deliberately place a hazard to the public in an area of public access?

[blackhole]

Unfortunately the CROW Act does not specifically cover this - the Peak Park looked closely at this. There is law which provides protection to the public in general circumstances - this is The Occupiers Liability Act, but someone who was injured would need to get a lawyer and take the landowner to court. With all that this involves it is not surprising that this has not happened so far.

[Will Hunt]

Snares also on vague paths/sheep trails walking in to Brandrith. Fortunately none of us got caught but it could very easily have happened.

[steveri]

Never even crossed my mind as a possible hazard this. One of the joys of offroad running is just that, getting off the beaten track, taking good and bad lines and ending up in stupid places ...the kind of places that might be snared ...places shown only on a secret and inaccurate map, available to members of a single club that happen to read a newsletter. Odd.

[Johnny Brown]

Unfortunately the CROW Act does not specifically cover this - the Peak Park looked closely at this. There is law which provides protection to the public in general circumstances - this is The Occupiers Liability Act, but someone who was injured would need to get a lawyer and take the landowner to court. With all that this involves it is not surprising that this has not happened so far.

Much as I'm against snares, I'd be very wary of this. The big concern of any owner of CRoW land is liability. It's one thing not putting bulls on a public footpath, but having your activities curtailed over big areas of land was the great stumbling block of getting the act passed. If a landowner is liable for injury from snares, why not barbed wire, walls, ditches, crags?

[dave]

Common sense would dictate that since barbed wire, walls, ditches, crags are clearly visible, and snares by their very nature are hard to spot or hidden, that would be the crux of it in court I imagine.

If I was a landowner and I peppered my CROW land with, for instance hidden, landmines and bear traps, without clear warnings, and then some runner loses a few limbs then I'd expect to get fucked over for it in the courts. Surely the snare issue is just a slightly less extreme version of this. There must be a basic duty of care aspect here, in not essentially placing hidden hazards that are dangerous to people who have access under CROW, and not necessarily to be reasonably expected to be there.

[SA Chris]

All the above aside isn't the use of snares inhumane? It's a horrible way to kill animals, pests or otherwise.

I still think of the mess Fayboyslimfast's dog got into after getting caught in one.

[SA Chris]

Google seems to say not. That's sad.

[Bonjoy]

As I mentioned in a thread a while back my missus very nearly got caught by one of these (or it may have been an unprotected gin trap come to think of it!) on the north side of Bleaklow last year.
I don't think providing a map on some website somewhere is adequate warning at all. A casual runner, who has as much right to be there as anyone else, is highly unlikely to be aware of this map or to have checked it. I can't recall seeing these maps posted to the stiles at any let alone every one of the many possible access points to the land.

[Will Hunt]

Common sense would dictate that since barbed wire, walls, ditches, crags are clearly visible, and snares by their very nature are hard to spot or hidden, that would be the crux of it in court I imagine.

If I was a landowner and I peppered my CROW land with, for instance hidden, landmines and bear traps, without clear warnings, and then some runner loses a few limbs then I'd expect to get fucked over for it in the courts. Surely the snare issue is just a slightly less extreme version of this. There must be a basic duty of care aspect here, in not essentially placing hidden hazards that are dangerous to people who have access under CROW, and not necessarily to be reasonably expected to be there.

 

If you injure yourself climbing over a barbed wire fence or a wall (which you probably shouldn't be doing anyway, most of the access agreements include a phrase about not damaging or tampering with these structures and it could be argued that people climbing over does damage) then that is because you chose to climb over. If you injure yourself climbing at a crag then it is because you choose to take the risk.

I suppose ditches and grips are historical structures that the landowner cannot reasonably be expected to make good?

Perhaps the crux is whether it is reasonable to expect people to accept snares as an inherent risk of running/walking on CRoW land. I think not.


As an aside, is there any actual data on whether snaring and trapping affects grouse competitor/predator populations significantly and whether this effect is reflected in grouse populations? It seems like a very labour intensiveway of killing animals since each trap needs visiting regularly and they are more often than not placed away from distinct paths and easy access. The impression I get is that many moorland management practices are carried out "because that's the way me grandfather did it" and trapping could be no different. 

[Johnny Brown]

I agree totally with the anti-snare, victorian practices sentiment.

But I remain completely unconvinced there is any difference in liability between setting a snare and leaving some barbed wire in the heather, or creating a drainage ditch which hidden by heather. Push too hard on this issue and I strongly suspect the result will be restrictions on access. Landowners are far from being poorly represented by lawmakers.

[ardeer]

the last thing id want to do is encourage the use of these things but wouldnt a small sign next to the snare be a good idea on the landowners part? animals cant read, (most) runners can.

[mrjonathanr]

Those urbane foxes are pretty sophisticated I hear.

[tomtom]

Those urbane foxes are pretty sophisticated I hear.

They only understand Latin..