[al]

not sure if this has been linked elsewhere but think its worth a look - its an attempt to deal with the PDNP wanting to raise funds from the estate, whilst avoiding enforced parking charges or increasing parking metered areas - think bill and rebekah will be around the crag car parks this holiday with some info etc. (the other day the plantation car park was almost empty but the lane verges alongside had a dozen cars parked up)
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/stanage-and-north-lees/stick-up-for-stanage

[Sloper]

I completely agree with the aims of the campaign, but they should enforce the parking charges (and expand it to the popular end and High Neb car parks) and ticket cars which are parked on the verges creating hazards to walkers and cyclists.

[dave]

On what basis do you think they can ticket cars on verges? The ones by the plantation don't have white lines.

As has been said at the bmc meetings, people would probably be more than happy to pay for a season parking ticket provided that the use of that money is transparent and ringfenced to stanage, something this sticker thing seems to sidestep, going on the info on that link.

[Sloper]

err obstructing a highway?

I think you need a road traffic roder for white / yellow lines but not for the above.

And as for the 'people would be happy to pay for a season ticket etc' well people are clearly not happy to pay on an ad hoc basis and there needs to be some enforcement to change that behaviour and the lack of 'ring fencing' is to me just a convenient excuse for taking the piss and expecting someone else to pay.

I seem to remember some teachers damaging the machine at Curbar not knowing they were on CCTV, I seem to remember one nearly lost his job as a result.

The problem with rignfencing monies is that it doesn't work which is basically the reason no one does it.

So while I think we should support the initiative, the number of regulars will still be insufficeint and we need to do something about the vast majority of visitors who not only park o/side the car park but also those that park int he car park and don't pay.

[kelvin]

Part of the problem of non payment in the car park is, I'm sure, down to people just wandering in to have a look, to see what the conditions are like and then actually climbing because it's fine. No one wants to pay £4 or whatever it is and find out the conditions are crap.

Maybe a season ticket for the area would be better...

[tomtom]

Maybe a season ticket for the area would be better...

Am I missing something - but looking at the link isnt that what the sticker is? £15 and free car park use for a year?

Seems to make sense to me...

[al]

I think its an attempt to avoid the aggro/bad feeling involved in getting a ticket, and also a result of feedback at some of the forum meetings, where it was seen as a more inclusive way of raising ££ -

the number of regulars will still be insufficeint

agree with that, but I'll be getting one, and I never paid for parking.

[kelvin]

Maybe a season ticket for the area would be better...

Am I missing something - but looking at the link isnt that what the sticker is? £15 and free car park use for a year?

Seems to make sense to me...

Just badly worded by me Tom - 'better than what happens now'

[Sloper]

I think its an attempt to avoid the aggro/bad feeling involved in getting a ticket, and also a result of feedback at some of the forum meetings, where it was seen as a more inclusive way of raising ££ -

the number of regulars will still be insufficeint

agree with that, but I'll be getting one, and I never paid for parking.

Genuinely interested in why you happily admit to never paying, is it because you don't believe in contributing to the peak park, somehow think that you're entitled not to pay because you're a climber or is it some other reason?

[a dense loner]

Possibly because you're not entitled to pay? Call me old fashioned.

[Sloper]

Possibly because you're not entitled to pay? Call me old fashioned.

Is there a translate button?

[a dense loner]

Have you read your last post on the political thread back to yourself? Read your last post on this thread as well, I was pointing out that you're NOT entitled to pay to park at Stanage. So why are you trying to make someone look like they're out of order because they've admitted to not doing something they don't need to do?

[bigtuboflard]

For what it's worth, I have always purchased the annual permit from PDNPA, though it's a fair bit cheaper being a resident in the park. Sure, there are car parks not included, I often park at Apparent North which is free, and I'd love to know my hard earned £25 wasn't just making up a shortfall in their Swiss cheese budget, but it means I "feel" as if I'm doing the right thing and can rock up at places without fishing for change.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think entitled is the word you're looking for Dense.

Paying to park at Stanage has always been effectively voluntary due to two points, firstly there are free alternatives to the one pay and display car park (out of four on the estate, plus verges), and secondly paying for a ticket has never been enforced. I hesitate to call it a requirement to pay for a ticket as the wording on the meter is fairly weaselly - the intention and result being that it appears to casual visitors as compulsory, whereas locals know it is not.

It's worth noting here that the bunds preventing parking on the verges were put in entirely without consultation by the Highways authority, much to the annoyance of everyone with any knowledge of the estate. Having that huge capacity for overflow parking was very useful.

I've never paid but will be buying one of the new permits. I've never felt guilty about it as for many years I was cash-poor but time-rich, and visiting 2 or 3 times a week. For many years I simply could not afford to have paid (you can see my tax returns if you like Sloper - I had a long argument with the student loans company one year as they didn't believe anyone could exist on my income). I've always resented the Peak-wide passes being substantially cheaper for Park residents and have boycotted them on that basis. Plus, over the years I feel I've put plenty back into the estate through volunteering.

(Edit: I should add it is publicly owned land and I do believe it should be funded properly by the state for the public to enjoy. If not it should be handed to an NGO who are prepared to properly fund it).

[dave]

Sounds like funds from these are ring fenced to the estate, in which case I'm buying two. Anyone going to raise the bar and buy three? In your face ringfence naysayers.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes they are. Pay and display tickets here and elsewhere are not.

[a dense loner]

You're right I didn't want to use the word "entitled" "voluntary" is much better.

[Boredboy]

I think its an attempt to avoid the aggro/bad feeling involved in getting a ticket, and also a result of feedback at some of the forum meetings, where it was seen as a more inclusive way of raising ££ -

the number of regulars will still be insufficeint

agree with that, but I'll be getting one, and I never paid for parking.

Genuinely interested in why you happily admit to never paying, is it because you don't believe in contributing to the peak park, somehow think that you're entitled not to pay because you're a climber or is it some other reason?

I'll join that guy in happily admitting to not paying for parking at stanage plantation. A voluntary peak park contribution 'yearly pass' seems good. It means those that have less money can enjoy the countryside and climbing etc without worry.

[Sloper]

If you can afford to drive out to the plantation you can afford to pay for parking.

I wonder if you see bankers paying tax as a 'voluntary' arrangement as well?

[andy_e]

If you can afford to drive out to the plantation you can afford to pay for parking.

You've clearly never had a minimum-wage zero-hours contract job if you believe this. Fortunately, half of the Leeds-Brimham route is downhill so I could save a great deal on fuel and still afford beans on toast.

[tomtom]

If you can afford to drive out to the plantation you can afford to pay for parking.

I wonder if you see bankers paying tax as a 'voluntary' arrangement as well?

Well there was the banker who seemed to think that buying the correct train ticket for his commute was 'optional'...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232

[Sloper]

If you can afford to drive out to the plantation you can afford to pay for parking.

You've clearly never had a minimum-wage zero-hours contract job if you believe this. Fortunately, half of the Leeds-Brimham route is downhill so I could save a great deal on fuel and still afford beans on toast.

It's a good job you didn't have to drive back Andy.

And yes, I have had minimum wage and casual jobs, a lot of people do and then move on in their professional life. When I had minimum wage / causal jobs the difference was I couldn't afford a car (x4yorkshire men & etc)

Tom, and yes, didn't the banker get vilified for cheating the system; it seems as if we're happy if 'our tribe' cheats, rather strange if you ask me (I won't mention lefty hypocrisy and a lack of morals).

[a dense loner]

Shouldn't everyone who works in some capacity pay tax in some capacity or am I missing something? Obviously the pedants out there will come out with yes but if you only work 12 hrs a wk you don't need to etc.
I'm not as far seeing as others obviously are so how are people comparing this to someone who doesn't pay to park his car when he doesn't need to? What has income, jobs, affordability got to do with this issue?

[galpinos]

Tom, and yes, didn't the banker get vilified for cheating the system; it seems as if we're happy if 'our tribe' cheats, rather strange if you ask me (I won't mention lefty hypocrisy and a lack of morals).

I would say the difference is that the car parking charge at Stanage was/is voluntary, whereas the train ticket was not.

[tomtom]

Tom, and yes, didn't the banker get vilified for cheating the system; it seems as if we're happy if 'our tribe' cheats, rather strange if you ask me (I won't mention lefty hypocrisy and a lack of morals).

I would say the difference is that the car parking charge at Stanage was/is voluntary, whereas the train ticket was not.

Absolutely.. Though I might try waiving my 'Stick up for Stanage' sticker at the Oyster card reader a few times...

When I tried to buy one yesterday the PDNP website was crook - is it fixed now?

[a dense loner]

Waiving your stick up for stanage sticker? You're as bad as the rest of us tomtom

[Sloper]

Tom, and yes, didn't the banker get vilified for cheating the system; it seems as if we're happy if 'our tribe' cheats, rather strange if you ask me (I won't mention lefty hypocrisy and a lack of morals).

I would say the difference is that the car parking charge at Stanage was/is voluntary, whereas the train ticket was not.

In what way is it voluntary?  Is it the bit about not getting caught?

[tomtom]

Waiving your stick up for stanage sticker? You're as bad as the rest of us tomtom

:D I admit that when I first read the thread title I thought it was referring to raising a middle finger to Stanage!

[galpinos]

In what way is it voluntary?  Is it the bit about not getting caught?

Nope, it's the bit about it it be a voluntary charge. Reading the parking meter implies that it is a compulsary charge but it wasn't/isn't*.

Train tickets have never been voluntary.

*I don't know the current state of play, I'm assuming it hasn't changed.

[Sloper]

No mention of the charge being voluntary here.  As far as I can recall the charge has never been a voluntary donation: the clue is in the name.

http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/parking

[a dense loner]

What has that list got to do with stanage?

[Sloper]

The bit that says it is pay & display

[Stubbs]

Which part of that page indicates the charge is compulsory?

[Sloper]

Which part of that page indicates the charge is compulsory?

Err the fact that it's a charge rather than a request for a donation.

The definition of a charge is, in the context, a demand for payment.

[Johnny Brown]

If your car was found in the car park without a ticket you did not receive a demand for payment; you got a leaflet saying 'whilst the charges are not compulsory, here are some good reasons why you should pay'.

[Sloper]

First I've heard of that, fair enough, having said that I do think it's rather hypocritical for people to avoid paying for things that they profess to care about and then slate others for avoiding paying for things they don't care about.

If the PDNP funding as cut 20% because of tax avoidance I'd hope the non payers would be the first to voice support for the cuts.

[jfdm]

Watched this with interest the last couple of days.
I know that the thread is about Stanage.

Am currently on holiday in the Lakes, today walked Langdale Pikes.
Car park was £5 at Dungeon Ghyll hotel.
The National Trust car park opposite £6.50 

Langdale boulders & the beautiful Brant Fell - free parking 

When I was growing up in Bolton, if Brownstones/Wilton charged for parking, would I have got into climbing. The answer is probably not.

[tomtom]

Lake District National Park use their parking fees to manage visitor numbers - so they bump up the langdale costs to try and nudge folk to other areas...

[T_B]

Here's some perspective for all those boulderers on here who I know like to dabble in a lil bit of Alpine...

http://www.hoernlihuette.ch/reservation_46.html

[jfdm]

Lake District National Park use their parking fees to manage visitor numbers - so they bump up the langdale costs to try and nudge folk to other areas...

Agreed, which will also happen with Stanage if they enforce charging.
The issue is overuse/erosion and controlling this.
Pricing people out of areas isn't the answer, it shouldn't happen in the countryside.
It's a slippery slope.

[Offwidth]

First I've heard of that, fair enough, having said that I do think it's rather hypocritical for people to avoid paying for things that they profess to care about and then slate others for avoiding paying for things they don't care about.

If the PDNP funding as cut 20% because of tax avoidance I'd hope the non payers would be the first to voice support for the cuts.

Even the deepest, darkest areas under the widest of Sheffield bridges crossed by climbers will have struggled to escape the knowledge of the past lack of compulsion on Stanage parking fees. Where on earth have you been and why are you so opinionated from such a position of clear ignorance? This land was donated for public use and parking charges do affect that access disproportionately for the poorer and more regular visitors. I'd add that recently the PDNP has hardly been a bastion of virtuous planning and spending. Hence perhaps the strong support for ringfencing voiced by climbers when discussing in the new possible parking arrangements. It was certainly not hypocrisy in my view to avoid paying for something non-compulsory that you think should be free or to avoid extra voluntary funding for an authority that was often working against its supposed public interest aims; especially so for those like Johnny who worked hard and gave up huge amounts of volunteer time to try to make said authority better meet its democratic remit, by representing the views of large numbers of Stanage land users who had real concerns through formal, democratic routes as a BMC access rep .

[lagerstarfish]

on a vaguely related issue - I drove past Burbage Bridge and Higgar on Monday (Easter bank holiday, plenty of sunshine) and the roads were littered with cars parked across white lines - reducing the road to a single lane.

The parking at Burbage Bridge is often full.

Are there any plans to organise it better (start charging)?

just wondering

[deacon]

So what's the verdict then. Do I buy a sticker or don't I?

[Jaspersharpe]

I thought the verdict was that you should buy a CAB t-shirt, but I may have missed something.

[tomtom]

I thought there was a special edition CAB knee less knee pad?

[deacon]

Ok, I'll buy the sticker, and stick it to a pink Anasazi. Sorted.

[dave]

Just buy a sticker, coz then all Slopers tax-dodging Tory donor cronies will have to start paying tax. They've only been avoiding it until now on principle that a few Sheffield climbers have been parking for free you see.

[deacon]

Aah, but I put my CAC tshirt through as tax-deductible workwear so  I'm in no position to make a moral judgment. Hence the request for advice.

[lagerstarfish]

I've bought a sticker, but I'm not going to display it or tell anyone that I've paid for one, just in case they might think I did it just to look good

gonna keep it in my smug drawer with my CAC t shirt