[Three Nine]

There seem to be two views with pull-ups.

1. You should only do pulls on jugs/bars/rings so that you just isolate the big muscles, and separately do deadhangs to isolate your fingers

2. When you pull down on a climbing move your body/arm/wrist/hand position etc. changes a lot, its not just like when you're dangling below a hold on a fingerboard. Therefore there is value in doing pull-ups on edges and pockets and what not.

Anybody care to express an opinion as to the relative merits of these two approaches?

[Three Nine]

Ps. i'm not really interested in pullups vs no pullups, as i'm in a situation where much of my 'training' must be accomplished using only a fingerboard/pull-up station, and my greatest physical weakness in climbing is bending my arms and pulling.

[finbarrr]

Sadly I'm too weak or too shit at pulling up on anything but jugs. So integrating excerzises leads to nothing.
I have to do pull ups or campus on jugs, and hang (diffirent angles for elbows etc) on ledges.

Then (not after chronologically) I also do some pull ups on edges, but that's more coordination training. Because I think I pop off before any one muscle group is worked

[mctrials23]

I don't know if there is a good answer to this really. Ultimately if you cannot pull up on an edge then its not going to be much use being able to pull up on a jug. On the other hand, I think doing pull ups on edges is considered bad for the elbows and likely to result in injury if you are not careful.

Perhaps a bit of both is good. Campus boarding is quite similar to doing pull ups on an edge and that is considered stressful training.

[Seb]

I was under the impression that it was high volume of pull ups that set peoples elbows off rather than what you do them on. Although it probably varies.
Id imagine pull ups are pretty easy for you so maybe weighted or one armers and dead hangs for fingers? I think pull ups on small holds is probably good to get used to pulling on them instead of hanging them.
But I can only do 8 pull ups anyway and never fingerboard so what do I know.

[jwi]

We know:

For advanced (≥8a or thereabouts) and elite (≥8c or thereabouts) climbers, no of pullups on edges is positively related to ability. Total number of pullups they can do on good holds is not.

For beginning to intermediate climbers, number of pullups on a bar is positively related to ability.

I take this as: Do pullups on edges if you are a fairly strong sport climber, don't bother too much with regular pullups on jugs, except for training explosive power perhaps.

[i_a_coops]

I don't think pullups on edges are great for explosive power. For that you could try this kind of thing:

Post

?? 

[Dexter]

thats some pretty good musical accompaniment to that vid.
Personally I think it depends on what you're aiming to get out of it, if you have weak upper arms/shoulders then pull ups on jugs/ wide grip pull ups will help, whereas if its your fingers that lack then get on the edges.
Also I'd aim for either the worst hold that you can do your max number of pull ups on (upper training), or doing as many as possible on the worst hold you can physically hold.

edit: I hate static fingerboard isolation (eg deadhangs) as a) I find it boring and b) I never normally climb statically

[Three Nine]

I don't think pullups on edges are great for explosive power. For that you could try this kind of thing:

Post

?? 

You have met me, right?

[abarro81]

I don't think pullups on edges are great for explosive power. For that you could try this kind of thing:

Post

?? 

I often wonder how people this strong ever fall off rock climbs.

For advanced (≥8a or thereabouts) and elite (≥8c or thereabouts) climbers, no of pullups on edges is positively related to ability.

I take this as: Do pullups on edges if you are a fairly strong sport climber,

The logic doesn't work. Pull-ups on edges correlates to ability, so let's assume that we want to get good at pullups on edges. We still don't know if this is best done via isolating fingers and big muscles or training them together.


I find that doing pullups on bad holds makes my fingers move around, which unseats them and makes it feel like I fail when I'm not really at my max yet - perhaps encores (or just hanging at different elbow positions) would be a better option to account for the changes in wrist/arm/finger angles without having the same issue? Plus offset pulls innit.

[TobyD]

I think it depends on the individual, and what the inter relation of their limiting factors is. You (and I!) probably do need to do sets of bar pull ups. Most 8a and higher sport climbers? Not so much.

[i_a_coops]

You have met me, right?

That's why I was suggesting training explosive power 

Reckon with a bit of imagination you could work out some easier one or two handed moves between holds on your fingerboard/pullup bar station.

r.e. pullups, would pulling up really fast (and lowering slowly to avoid frying your elbows) be targeted most squarely at your weaknesses whether it was on a bar or an edge? Based on you looking surprisingly strong when bending your arms slowly on that gnarly Bovey crack the other day, but struggling on fast slaps on Slotted Wall and Red Right Hand.

[Three Nine]

You may we be right, tho I think the difference on those problems was that for slotted I had a toe on, and the crack I had a heel-toe cam.

I will investigate (by dangerous experimentation) whether my setup can take that kind of dynamic force. Its possible I may lose my rent deposit...

[Three Nine]

. Pull-ups on edges correlates to ability, so let's assume that we want to get good at pullups on edges. We still don't know if this is best done via isolating fingers and big muscles or training them together.

this is what I was getting at. Obviously training them together is more specific, but specificness (cant spell the other one) isnt the only consideration, otherwise one would never do any directed exercises

[Rocksteady]

The Anderson brothers don't recommend pull ups on edges on fingerboards as they think most fingerboards are too narrow for the shoulders, which puts you in an unnatural position and strains shoulders and elbows.

One-arm pulls on edges (with assistance as needed) might be a way of getting around this. This would also be a good way of targetting strength/power range (1-6 reps).

[Dexter]

I always thought that campus rungs were also a bit narrow (maybe just my large arms), as when climbing your arms tend not to be around shoulder width apart (this may be just the problems I seek out).

[Nibile]

To obtain maximum results, specificity is key. Each excercise trains mostly itself, with possibly little cross-over with other abilities. This doesn't mean that we can't be specific and then blend all together with targeted climbing.
I prefer isolating fingers to maximize finger strength. As Alex said, pull ups move your body (or so they should do) and shift your balance, so holding the hold requires an increased effort because you can slip off, your fingers move and shift angles, etc. By doing so, we can't reach the maximum effort that our fingers can bear (but we can reach the max effort for pullups on edges).
Plus, doing pullups on edges can be hard on the elbows, for the reasons explained by Dr. Kelios Bonetti in his "fingerboarding errors" video. I think it's due to the position of ulna and radius.

Moreover, really hard deadhangs are far from being a fingers only excercise. To hang a really hard hold you have to engage shoulders, elbows, bis and tris, and this is a great work, also because it's isometric and mostly done with almost straight arms, with all the positive consequences.

So, I would train fingers by deadhanging, pullups on bar/jugs/friendly holds, with some session at medium/high intensity and little volume for pullups on smaller edges that are positive and not too slopey.

[TheTwig]

You have met me, right?

That's why I was suggesting training explosive power 

Reckon with a bit of imagination you could work out some easier one or two handed moves between holds on your fingerboard/pullup bar station.

r.e. pullups, would pulling up really fast (and lowering slowly to avoid frying your elbows) be targeted most squarely at your weaknesses whether it was on a bar or an edge? Based on you looking surprisingly strong when bending your arms slowly on that gnarly Bovey crack the other day, but struggling on fast slaps on Slotted Wall and Red Right Hand.

Interesting that you mention lowering slowly to avoid frying your elbows, studies show that eccentric exercises do more damage to muscles, DOMS studies have shown that eccentric exercises cause it way more than other types. (and presumably other tissue? The reason they are good for tendonosis's (tendonosi?!?) seems to be they hurt the tendons and the body realises it needs to heal the area.)

Pullups on rings/rock rings/sling trainer etc seem to be better for the body all-around if you can get some and you are purely focusing on pullup strength

[Sasquatch]

Moreover, really hard deadhangs are far from being a fingers only excercise. To hang a really hard hold you have to engage shoulders, elbows, bis and tris, and this is a great work, also because it's isometric and mostly done with almost straight arms, with all the positive consequences.

I've not trained direct pull strength in years, and it hasn't mattered yet.  I tend to do heavy weighted fingerboarding (+40-50kg) on edges, which really works all of my pull muscles.  The strongest my pull strength has ever been was 2 years ago at the tail end of one of these FB cycles.  I was able to go from full straight arm to just past 90 degree elbow on a 1-armer after zero pull strength training. 

. Pull-ups on edges correlates to ability, so let's assume that we want to get good at pullups on edges. We still don't know if this is best done via isolating fingers and big muscles or training them together.

this is what I was getting at. Obviously training them together is more specific, but specificness (cant spell the other one) isnt the only consideration, otherwise one would never do any directed exercises

Correlation does not = causation. 

Didn't hanging an edge have a similar correlation?  Indicating that the edge is the factor to consider, not the pullups? 

There seem to be two views with pull-ups.

1. You should only do pulls on jugs/bars/rings so that you just isolate the big muscles, and separately do deadhangs to isolate your fingers

2. When you pull down on a climbing move your body/arm/wrist/hand position etc. changes a lot, its not just like when you're dangling below a hold on a fingerboard. Therefore there is value in doing pull-ups on edges and pockets and what not.

Anybody care to express an opinion as to the relative merits of these two approaches?

You're looking to add pullups into the training as a lack of wall access limits you to a FB and pullup set up for training, and the question you aksing yourself is which/what would be better?

I mentioned this somewhere else, but complex training seems to show good results.  So heavy weighted pulls, followed by plyometric work.  The plyometric can be clapping type pullups, chained speed pullups, etc.

[highrepute]

Do 1. because you can hang smaller holds when not pulling up, and do faster/dynamic pull-ups on jugs

However, this is in addition to climbing.

If you're not able to climb much then do 1 one session and 2 the other.

[jwi]

People,

this should all be in reply to someone who climbs at a fairly high level and only has a fingerboard for training. No wall. No outdoor bouldering.

Of course he should do pullups on small edges.

[Three Nine]

I don't see why you think its axiomatic that one should do pulls on edges, did you skip all of the above?

On the occasions when I climb its at a very modest level (7c+ OS/8a+ RP/7C+ boulder link, 7B bloc). I can sometimes climb outdoors at the weekends, and I have access to a very very shit and very very busy wall. I'm going to do one day purely directed strength exercises, and i'm interested to know what's best. I've always been good at dangling and shit at pulling through.

[jwi]

OK.

Then I think you should do both. (Pull ups on edges + pullups on bar). The movement are slightly different.

I have exactly as much data to back up my superstition as everyone else.

[i_a_coops]

pulling up really fast (and lowering slowly to avoid frying your elbows)

Interesting that you mention lowering slowly to avoid frying your elbows, studies show that eccentric exercises do more damage to muscles, DOMS studies have shown that eccentric exercises cause it way more than other types. (and presumably other tissue? The reason they are good for tendonosis's (tendonosi?!?) seems to be they hurt the tendons and the body realises it needs to heal the area.)

That was my point - surely dropping back down fast has got to be worse for your joints than lowering in control?! I suppose you could just let go and damage your knees instead.