[Bonjoy]

I think the question is, should the peak bite the bullet and get in line with the rest of the country or continue to insist on being different. I tend toward the opinion that it's just some letters/numbers and not worth getting overly attached to. Putting up with lots of disparate systems is worse than putting up with one dodgy yank system.

[Bubba]

Exactly Bonjoy

[Bubba]

People have been debating this issue for as long as I can remember and there's never going to be one solution that pleases everyone, so it's best just to cut losses and go with the one that's being most widely used.

Let's face it, Font grades are stupid anyway. What's a 1a? At least V0 is a real grade. And who came up with the bright idea of subdividing a linear numeric scale into 3 letters, and then adding a plus in there to complicate it even further?  :roll:

[squeek]

It'd be a big step just for us to use V grades and Font grades.  At least we would be using 2 systems other people use around the world, which are both useful, and we could all still bicker about which one was best.  

[AndyR]

Font grades work on grit better than any other system.

Huh? Come again - what kind of old-wives-tale-nonsense is that?

How can an arbitrary, ad-hoc grading system, designed to indicate whether something is easier or harder than something else, work 'better' on one rock type than another?

[a dense loner]

lots of disparate systems, u mean font n V.

[Bonjoy]

lots of disparate systems, u mean font n V.

Are you forgetting Northumberland B, Peak B, Welsh V, these have arisen due to a lack of one generally accepted system. I'm sure more weird aberations will continue to be invented if no definative choice is ever made.

[a dense loner]

At least V0 is a real grade

at most V0 is a real grade. what grade is it? so everything under V0 is not worthy of a grade. i know loads of people who can't climb 5b. what are we going to do with them? survival of the fittest comes to mind :sniper:

How can an arbitrary, ad-hoc grading system, designed to indicate whether something is easier or harder than something else, work 'better' on one rock type than another?

it just does. i don't know why but i also don't know if the chicken came before the egg :?

[Johnny Brown]

How can an arbitrary, ad-hoc grading system, designed to indicate whether something is easier or harder than something else, work 'better' on one rock type than another

Well lets see... peeps stopped using UK tech grades a while back, due to a reluctance to expand the system beyond 7a, and the subsequent width of 6c and 7a. They then tried an 'improved' v-grade system - b-grades, which soon abandoned as there were no references. Finally they went back to v-grades, but felt the need to add a grade to make them, wait for it, correlate with font grades. All along those in the know had been quietly using font grades with no problems whatsoever.

As for rock-types, most find font grades work better on grit cos the climbing style is similar. Hueco grades might work better on similar rock to hueco, though i don't think the UK has much. And for that matter, I don't know anyone who has climbed enough at hueco to understand the grades anyway. Most americans haven't either, as anyone who has travelled in the US will testify.

Bear in mind font grades have evolved over a longer time than bouldering in the UK and US combined. And anyone who finds more than a simple number sequence 'too complicated' should move to the US where they will be in good company.

[Bubba]

what grade is it?

It's V0

i know loads of people who can't climb 5b. what are we going to do with them?

What does the Font system offer them that's any better. Have you ever heard anyone talking about the Font 3As they've just done?

[a dense loner]

the others are just a take on the V scale, done cos we wanted our own one system, that our sceptered isle could say is ours. these have proved beyond any doubt that this doesn't work. what is wrong with the 2 systems then squeek can convert to Vs n i can convert to font? stop trying to play god on god's own rock :wink:

[a dense loner]

Have you ever heard anyone talking about the Font 3As they've just done?

no, but i know a couple of ladies who were projectin 4's n 5's, sounds good for a new guide, n these were as psyched as anyone n got as much encouragement as anyone else. nice one love, good send V0---- doesn't this sound a bit too deflametory or nice one love, 6a next. i know which one i'd like to hear. if only i could get to talk to ladies :cry:

[AndyR]

Finally they went back to v-grades, but felt the need to add a grade to make them, wait for it, correlate with font grades.

Only one person thought that little gem up...

As for rock-types, most find font grades work better on grit cos the climbing style is similar. Hueco grades might work better on similar rock to hueco, though i don't think the UK has much.

You see, it's this I don't understand - how the grading system works 'better' on one rock type versus another - it's just a way of telling you if one problem is harder than another - there are no intrinsic qualities to the grading system (i.e. font 7a = 0.6 m reach off 10 mm edge at 85 degree angle at 10 degrees celcius etc etc) - we could grade everything in bananas if we wanted to - it's just an approximately linear scale that keeps on being gently udged at its upper end by the few very hardest climbers.  Trying to allocate mythical grading properties for font grades to grit is just hocus pocus.

[Bubba]

You see, it's this I don't understand - how the grading system works 'better' on one rock type versus another - it's just a way of telling you if one problem is harder than another

I've never understood these claims either. Somebody please explain.

[jonP]

Trying to allocate mythical grading properties for font grades to grit is just hocus pocus.

I could also point out that V grades are well-established in Yorkshire, which has more grit bouldering than the Peak.

[dave]

I agree with andy R here - no grading system is better for any particular rock type. the old "Vs work better in north wales cos its all positive pulling USA type climbing" is garbage.

however there is some truth that its easier to compare grit to font (and thus compare grades) since grit is seen to be the nearst thing we have to font.

I would argue that grit is often nothing like font climbing though, in fact aften no more like it than any other rocktype. the only place i think is like font climbing is kyloe-in.

[Big Frank]

Trying to allocate mythical grading properties for font grades to grit is just hocus pocus.

I could also point out that V grades are well-established in Yorkshire, which has more grit bouldering than the Peak.

Yorkshire also has more grit bouldering than Font!

Come to think of it, it also has more grit bouldering than Hueco!

[Big Frank]

Finally they went back to v-grades, but felt the need to add a grade to make them, wait for it, correlate with font grades.

Only one person thought that little gem up...

As for rock-types, most find font grades work better on grit cos the climbing style is similar. Hueco grades might work better on similar rock to hueco, though i don't think the UK has much.

You see, it's this I don't understand - how the grading system works 'better' on one rock type versus another - it's just a way of telling you if one problem is harder than another - there are no intrinsic qualities to the grading system (i.e. font 7a = 0.6 m reach off 10 mm edge at 85 degree angle at 10 degrees celcius etc etc) - we could grade everything in bananas if we wanted to - it's just an approximately linear scale that keeps on being gently udged at its upper end by the few very hardest climbers.  Trying to allocate mythical grading properties for font grades to grit is just hocus pocus.

Grading in Bananas is a whole can of worms you do not want to open!
http://www2.btcctb.org/projects/kcdp/banvar1.html

[Dave Flanagan]

I agree with andy R here - no grading system is better for any particular rock type.

however there is some truth that its easier to compare grit to font (and thus compare grades) since grit is seen to be the nearst thing we have to font.

To me these 2 sentances contradict a bit.
A grading system is just a sequence of names assigned to problems of similar difficulties. The only way the problem can be grouped is by comparing them to each other (or to benchmarks) if these benchmark problems are of similar style then it is easier to make a comparison.
So assuming that all the benchmarks for the Font grade system are in Font and of a general Font style then these benchmarks are easier compared to a similar style/type of rock like grit. Therefore the Font system will describe grit more accuratly than say limestone?

[dave]

aye, but there isn't really font style. for every classic problem thats the typical slopey grasping topout (la balance), theres also crimpy walls (12bis), chipped monstroseties (carnage), wierdo stuff (el pousah, eclipse), dynos, roofs, straight fringery thugging (duroxmanie), pocket hugging (alta) etc. i could go on all day. soem of these are more like peak stuff, some are more like welsh stuff, some are more like northumberland.etc

as i say there is some truth the soem font stuff is a but like some grit stuff, but its not like the peak is just a rougher version of font.

[Dave Flanagan]

aye, but there isn't really font style.

I had a feeling you where going to say that.
Grit is more similar to Font that Heuco though?

[a dense loner]

aye, but there isn't really font style

of course there is. thats like sayin theres no real grit style, of course there is. hampi style, of course there is. LCC style, of course there is. cresciano style, of course there is.

grit, font leaning towards subtlety n technique
LCC, cresciano basic power pulling
hampi crimpy basic pulling
i could go on but i've even bored myself

of course these are generalisations, but these become generalizations for a reason

[Percy B]

The font system is a lot larger than the V system, and therefore is better for describing the difficulty of all types of problem, both easy and difficult. It was dreamt up by the Bleausards who know more about bouldering than most other folk, and has worked very well in the forest for a long time. Most keen Brits will visit Font, and have used this grading system in anger so know how it works.
JB's comment that the font system is better suited to grit is well founded in my opinion. Sandstone, gritstone and some types of granite are the best rocks to boulder on because they yield problems that will not submit to brutal strength and agression, but require subtlety of movement, 'feel' for the rock, balance, core strength, and ability (as well as some brute strength, admitedly!). This is a fact of life....... volcanic rock, edgey granite, limestone, etc. merely require the ability to bear down on small edges and pockets, thus yielding to a more strength orientated and thuggish approach. I feel that these more basic styles of climbing can have their difficulty best described using the V system - a nice basic numerical system where the more you bear down, the bigger the number you can tick!
The more technical rock types that require a more subtle approach require a more subtle grading system to describe the difficulties involved, and this is what the font system does so well.

So, thats my two pences worth. Obviously I have generalised broadly, have dissed most peoples favourite rock types, missed a vast number of exceptions that exist, and am probably wrong in most peoples opinions (but secretly, I know I'm right!) :wink:

[Bubba]

I think we're getting away from the issue here. V grades might not be the best system and Font grades might be better for grit, though personally I'm not convinced at all by such an assertion.

The fact is that almost all of the rest of the UK either uses V or B, and I and many others think that it's desirable to have one system across the board, and also one which is recognised on an international scale.

Now, remove the Peak and gritstone blinkers for a moment and you may see that the only hope we have of getting to that situation, as opposed to continuing to have many disparate systems, is to adopt one of the already existing systems.

You can dig your heels in, use Font grades for the Peak and expect the rest of the UK to abandon their own systems and toe the line, but we all know there's no way that's going to happen.

[Bonjoy]

All the good reasons in the world for adopting the font grade don't change the fact that the V grade is more well established and understood by joe punter in the UK and is therefore prime contender for being the UK's universal bouldering grade! Basically from where we stand now it is more effort and unheaval to go font than it is to go V thats just SCIENCE and all this je ne ce qua bollocks isn't going to change that.  At the end of the day however you write it grades are just a scale equating to 0-whatever, therefore the sublety comes from how you apply the grade rather than being intrinsic to a chosen set of letters and numbers.