[andy_e]

I was warming up yesterday on a roof with a decent heel-toe for your right. I did the move which I thought would have put the most strain on my knee but whilst trying to remember the beta for the next move with the heel-toe still in, something popped down the outside of my left knee. I walked it off for about five minutes then tentatively tried the climb again. No problems getting into the move but as soon as I put my heel-toe in and started to weight it it hurt. Has anyone else had a similar experience? Any recovery advice? I don't think it's too bad but I'm a bit worried and gutted as I'm off to Chironico in three weeks. Thankfully, there don't seem to be many heel-toe dependent problems in Chironico! Ta for any advice.

[Stu Littlefair]

I've done this twice in the last year, on each knee!

Advice I've received is that you've either torn the meniscus, or strain/partially torn the collateral ligaments (see diagram here - http://www.patient.co.uk/health/knee-ligament-injuries-leaflet).

If it's the meniscus it may heal itself in short order, but meniscus tears that lead to lots of clicking and/or "stuck" knees *may* need an op, so see a GP.

Both mine appear to be ligament issues. They don't hurt much day to day but seem to take an absolute age (think over six months) before you can use them in anger again. Treatment seems to be rest and ice for a bit then stretches.

[andy_e]

Oh bugger, it certainly feels like it might be a collateral ligament, hopefully it'll get better in less than six months as most of my winter projects seem to involve left heel-toes! It hurts at the back left of my left knee, just below the knee-pit. Cheers for the tip-off, did you do yours in a heel-toe too?

[danm]

Stu mirrors what my physio told me after I hurt my knee bouldering a couple of weeks ago*. I'm back bouldering on easy problems but some moves I just can't do - outside edging and high steps seem to be the main problem for me. My rehab began with ice, gentle walks, sleeping with a folded pillow under the leg to raise it, no booze and eating loads of fish. Last week I did some indoor top roping sessions and tested the knee to find out which moves I can't do, and yesterday I went outdoor soloing and easy bouldering. Its sore today but at least I can climb with a bit of care.

The only advice I'd give is don't risk more severe damage for the sake of a holiday, Chironico will be there next year. Stop if it starts hurting and be careful jumping off as your knee will probably be weaker (I've noticed my propreception is a bit off  as well, I've gone a bit stumbly on rough terrain!)

*At the Works, high rockover into a press move, overbalanced backwards but knee got stuck against the panel and was twisted with full weight on it, making an unpleasant popping sound.

[Johnny Brown]

At the Works, high rockover into a press move, overbalanced backwards but knee got stuck against the panel and was twisted with full weight on it, making an unpleasant popping sound

Sounds similar to how my knee went initially. I ended up needing an arthroscopy (keyhole cartilage repair). Heel was trapped behind a jug. Another reason not to climb indoors...

Cycling was good rehab for me - low impact, builds strength to stabilise.

[andy_e]

Ouch, they both sound brutal! I don't think mine is as bad as this as it wasn't a shock loading or a full-bodyweight-on-it jobby. Debating whether to go for a run tonight, is it a bad idea?

[Reprobate_Rob]

Andy, this sounds exactly like what i did to my left knee last week. Put the outside of my left heel high up by my crotch then fully weighted it. Loud popping, soreness in exactly that place behind the knee. I'm running a half marathon this weekend so I panicked a bit and went straight in to a physio the next day. After much prodding and twisting i was assured I hadn't done any damage to ligaments (it would likely have swollen up if i'd done that and been a damn sight more painful). She seemed to think the popping would have been the fibula moving in the knee when it was weighted at full rotation. Bit of muscular reaction, hence soreness, but she got me running there and then which was fine, so told me to get on with it and stop if it actually started hurting. I've done a couple of runs since with no reaction. Hopefully yours is something similar.
Usual caveats... not a doctor etc. etc.

[Nibile]

It's a terrible idea. It's so terrible that it apperas teerible even to me.
Go to see a sports doctor.
It could be meniscus or ligaments (or nothing), so ask him to do all the tests.
And obviously don't go running. Never again.

[andy_e]

Thanks Rob, I'm indeed hoping my situation is similar to yours! Have you climbed on yours since? Mine is fine to climb on as log as I don't put a heel-toe in!

[Reprobate_Rob]

Yep, climbing's fine, running's fine. Just avoiding putting lateral force through the knee, so no more heels at extreme rotation, or heel-toes.

[tomtom]

Debating whether to go for a run tonight, is it a bad idea?

Running is always a bad idea... havnt you seen the threads?

Theres even a popular thread about people who have fallen over when running!
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24552.0/topicseen.html

[andy_e]

Well, I went for swift(ish) 5km last night and everything's fine today. I also tried the "heel-toe simulator," the gap under my desk and the top of the drawers, and the pain is a lot less than it was yesterday, and now feels more like muscular soreness. Thanks for your advice everyone (which I tended to ignore anyway...)

[Fultonius]

How was your knee in the long term Andy?

I've just done this tonight, doing some half arsed mediocre sandstone scrittle crabbing at Ley Quarry. Decided to practice a known weakness of mine - heel hooks and rockovers. Pop!   

[tk421a]

(not Andy) - I've done both my mcls before. Right one 10 years ago. Both times could function 100% in day to day life but in the very specific twisting was weak.
Did one leg standing / knee bending for a while. Things that make it feel a bit unstable. It's back to full strength.
Did left one a few weeks back doing a very deep drop knee in a roof. Ran a half marathon 2 weeks after. But still tweaky if I twist it (like side footing a football).

[Fultonius]

Thanks. Yeah, MCLs seem to heal well. I've been through some major ligament trauma before (PCL (complete tear), LCL (bad sprain) and PFL (complete) on my right knee), so I know the process - just wondering about this one specifically.

It's feeling like it's a proper sprain this morning. Stiff, painful, sore to touch. Not 100% if it's the lateral collateral, the meniscus (seems unlikely) and/or the PFL). Will book some physio to see what they think and then consultant if they think necessary.

It feels fairly stable, just a touch wobbly and limited range of motion. Trying to avoid weight bearing just now. Fucking shite time of year to get injured!

[SamT]

Done something similar 3 times now, twice on one side, once on the other.  Always on sideways heel hooks, or heel toe in an break and pulling in hard.

Each time its actually been the hamstring where it inserts into the knee.  (Must be a genetic flaw/weak spot for me). 

If it really hurts when you try and peel your shoe off by holding it with your other foot (if you know what I mean), then its likely a hamstring. Usual Caveats apply, i.e. go see a physio.

Slow recovery, theraband exercises, slowly building up. cycling, leading to squats and general knee strengthening exercises.  All seem fine for now (fingers crossed) but I do shy away from silly high heel rockovers etc these days.

[Fultonius]

I've just briefly tested Sam, and heel hooking / dragging heel like taking show off doesn't elicit any pain, so it seems my hamstrings are ok. Most of the pain is around the joint line on the outside, so I'm suspecting minor LCL strain. Already feeling a good bit better (just a bit stiff at the end ROM when straightening. Even squatting feels kind of ok just now (as in, went down to pick something off the floor and it didn't hurt).

I'll take it easy this week, but it's looking promising for getting back sooner than feared.