[Johnny Brown]

Stu wrote:  

I don't think that's enough reason to drag his name through the mud

I know the debate started over Steve, my impression is that it very qiuckly moved beyond that. I haven't been talking about steve specifically and I don't feel I've dragged his name through the mud. Personally I feel he's a side issue in this debate - I think he has been affected by the 'fashion' for doubt created by others.

i have had some very interesting PMs today...

[Pantontino]

I think the preoblem here is that there are several sub texts to this debate. Some people are defending Steve (although it seems the debate has shifted on from this), others are keen to challenge a particular high profile individual, but don't want to necessarily be dragged over the coals if they've got it wrong (which is still entirely possible).

And then there is, as JB has indicated, various PMs bouncing around.

I'm not sure where this is leading, hopefully closer to the truth.

[Bubba]

A load of PMs flying about aren't going to get anyone closer to the truth.

If people believe so strongly in their claim that a particular individual is a liar, and they have some sort of reasonable evidence to back up their claim, then why don't they post up?

But if you're going to, then at least do the decent thing and get in touch with the person you are dissing and let them give their side to the story.

I must also make clear that it is the individual's responsibility to defend themselves should it come to anything more than forum banter. If you call someone a liar and they decide to pay you a visit, then don't blame me or ukbouldering.com.

[Bubba]

PS This is called "putting your money where your mouth is".

But I don't expect there to be that many takers.

[Nigel]

With regard to Dunning, he must have had a belayer on Hubble non? Surely that would sort that particular issue out?

[Bubba]

Depends who the belayer is. John Dunne was belayed on many of his ascents by Andy Jack, but people just tar him with the same brush.

If Steve was belayed by Dalvinder, then I know for sure that won't satisfy the doubters.

[fatboySlimfast]

i was bouldering with someone a while back and matter of factly told me Andy Jack was a figment of desperate dunnes imagination and was not real and no one had ever been able to find him or track him down to speak to him..............
Which is funny cos he stayed at our house back in the day at least 5 times
This is in no way associated with this argument cos im keeping out of it :

[Johnny Brown]

Bubba wrote:

A load of PMs flying about aren't going to get anyone closer to the truth.

you'd be suprised...

If people believe so strongly in their claim that a particular individual is a liar, and they have some sort of reasonable evidence to back up their claim, then why don't they post up?

because the reasonable evidence is generally from individuals not present. I'm not comfortable to drop a bombshell and say... 'x' said so - it should come straight from them

But if you're going to, then at least do the decent thing and get in touch with the person you are dissing and let them give their side to the story.

exactly - another reason people aren't prepared to 'go public' just yet. At the end of the day people would rather give others a chance to defend themselves before they are publicly humiliated...

[Stu Littlefair]

Threads like that are just the problem  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

Your thread strongly insinuates that you have iron-clad evidence about someone lying. Only you aren't prepared to back it up, you aren't prepared to defend the insinuations. You even provide some fairly decent reasons why you wont. That's fair enough.

But if you're not prepared to back up your accusations then shut the fuck up! Don't drop broad hints on the internet for everyone to see. honestly!

[Bubba]

you'd be suprised...

What I meant was it's not going to get public opinion any closer to the truth.

because the reasonable evidence is generally from individuals not present. I'm not comfortable to drop a bombshell and say... 'x' said so - it should come straight from them

Get them to post on here then. I'm not saying the stuff you know isn't true, but lots of rumours are like "oh, 'x' said so...." but when you talk to 'x' it's   "oh, 'y' said so", etc, etc. Let's have some real facts and not just endless backstabbing and sniding.

exactly - another reason people aren't prepared to 'go public' just yet.

Or when it comes to it, are they prepared to go public at all, or would they rather just throw stones from a safe position?

[webbo]

i would be so bold as to say that if someone gave you a good kicking because you said that you did'nt belive they done a particular problem.it would hardly increase peoples belief of an ascent. :bash:
but as i don't intend to accuse any one of lying at the moment i'm not about to test this theory

[Johnny Brown]

Whhoooaaa :shock:

calm down, its just a chat room :wink:

Actually the bigger revelations today have been about who has been maliciously spreading the gossip in the first place. Now as that is again second hand I'm not going name-calling.

I don't have iron-clad evidence aboout anybody lying. OK?
So stop jumping to conclusions.

[Stu Littlefair]

By the way, someone who would definately know told me that Johnny Brown wears frilly girls knickers. Obviously, I won't say who, because that would be unfair, but trust me it's true  :wink:

[Johnny Brown]

No surprises there - pics have been on another thread for some time!

Though its more a g-string than frilly knickers. I prefer my underwear to chafe rather than tickle

[dave]

most strong lasses wear womens pants don't they? its only to be expected.

[Stu Littlefair]

Whhoooaaa :shock:
I don't have iron-clad evidence aboout anybody lying. OK?
So stop jumping to conclusions.

oops.  

[webbo]

is it your own g-string jonny :shock:

[Jim]

I heard it was a frilly g-string?

[nik at work]

Wow, this threads a bit of a flyer.

Well here's my late entry, which will doubtless repeat lots of other peoples comments and not really cover any new ground.

A far as I'm concerned until there is absolute evidence that someone has been less than honest about their climbing (i.e. they ersonally come out and said 'yup, I bullshitted that whole season...') then I'll believe.

This for 3 reasons:
1) You never know the motivations of the detractors, and you get into a whole is he a bullshitter or are they bullshitters about him or blah blah blah and my little brain can't cope.
2) My meagre collection of ascents have been largely unwitnessed (I am one of those sad obsessive lonely wierdos) and it would seem churlish of me to doubt others whilst expecting them to belive my claims (not that I really care whether people belive me or not).
3) Just makes me feel kinda squidgy being all trusting an all.

Having said that I don't see a problem with asking genuine questions about ascents, but maybe this isn't the place to raise the questions that have been raised as it may have come across as rumour-mongering? To ask questions about an unrepresented individual on this forum is not the same as asking Dave (for example) when/how/who with he did Submergence etc...

Stu seems to be pretty much on the money with this one IMHO - maybe it's a short people thing?

[curly ben]

Woah heavy topic, interesting read though. Somebody touched on it earliar- that if you come from the arguement from a different angle- there are so many underground rulers. Its the same in all 'extreme sports' skating snowboarding- any sport/lifestyle with cliques or hubs of action ie sheffield will have people who talk about their activities, other people like to talk about other people activities and the theres the 'others' who seem to just get on with it, and some i hide from publicity....
brings to mind that perrin article in climber about 'spinks'. Anyone shed any light im really intrigued

[Fingers of a Martyr]

anyone else seen the new ote with steve's new problems. rhythem looks amazing.

in common with most things steve does these days he has video footage of his ascent

sad its had to come to that but at least it'll stop anyone calling him a liar anymore.

nice one steve.

[Nigel]

No I haven't seen it but hopefully by getting video of his ascents then Steve will quash his doubters, good luck to him.

(Your avatar - Impropa Opera, nice pic).

[Fingers of a Martyr]

thanx neil but its actually picnic sarcastic. come on, you're doing a topo of the place u shud have spotted that.   :wink:  :D

[Nigel]

Oops!    In my defence they look the same in a picture of that size. Erm...

[dave]

To ask questions about an unrepresented individual on this forum is not the same as asking Dave (for example) when/how/who with he did Submergence etc...

28/02/04 14:15
the cheating way
kim and cofe present