[Pantontino]

It's started again:

http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=93123

If any of the haters actually have any evidence, then I'm all ears.

[AndyR]

It's started again:

http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=93123

If any of the haters actually have any evidence, then I'm all ears.

I never read planetfear - has this been raised before?

[Pantontino]

There were 2 nasty threads on PF a while back - basically lots of anonomous cowards sticking the boot in to Steve.

Both threads were eventually pulled.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

don't no steve and he probably doesn't want random people sticking up for him but i've seen him climb and basically believe anything he says he's done cos he's well strong enough and got the technique to back it up so don't believe any of this bullshit u read on the internet about him.

that old planetfear thread wos a fuckin' disgrace. :evil:

[Johnny Brown]

Well I don't want to be accused of hating the guy, so I guess a little justification is in order.

I never saw the planetfear thread and I only rarely visit cocktalk so I'm not aware of any previous discussion on this subject.

I am (as those who know me will testify) very passionate about climbing, particularly where gritstone and ethics are concerned. I don't have any media profile or sponsors to worry about, so I can 'play to my own parameters'

I'm deeply concerned about the state of top-end climbing at the moment, mainly due to accusations of lying. I'm fed up about people not wanting to say anything publicly, because if anyone is even bending the truth slightly they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. It's a small scene, people talk to each other and most ascents are absolutely never doubted. So in some situations I wonder if 'there's no smoke without fire'

Whether or not people are lying, the way the sport has developed has left us pretty powerless to tackle it. The climbing media relies almost entirely on people promoting themselves, usually with staged photos. I don't see this as healthy - my own photos that have appeared in print are always of actual ascents.

So I am suspicious of any climbers who operate entirely without witnesses. Personally I couldn't lie about such things, and I find it hard to believe others can. But people have and they will continue to do so as long as they think they can get away with it. Without solid evidence I remain simply suspicious - I don't 'hate' anyone and I don't consider voicing reasonable doubts to be slagging them off.

Hopefully on UKB we can ensure a reasoned debate about this - I'd prefer it here than cocktalk as in the past Bubba's moderation has been spot on. Plus most of us know each other somehow and there's no anonymity.

So what do you think? Is the Si O'Connor/ Steve Dunning/ Ben Heason debacle in anyway healthy for british climbing? How useful is it just to trust such self-publicists implicitly?

[AndyR]

Do you have political aspirations by any chance? That could have been an answer straight from 'The Today' programme :D

Are you saying that you do have doubts then??

[jonP]

You can't accuse someone of lying unless you have evidence.  A lack of witnesses isn't evidence, nor are staged photos.  People spreading rumours on the internet isn't evidence either.  Nor are comments like "I saw X on route Y the day before he claimed it and he was falling off all over the place", or "climber A is really strong and he's failed on it numerous times, so X can't have done it".

End of story really.

[Bubba]

Cheers JB, I try my best on the moderation front...

Discussion is all well and good but no witch hunts without at least some sort of evidence please.

It's also worth noting that Steve reads and posts on this forum, so may choose to comment or not; and that a man like Gaskins has given his action on Hubble the thumbs up.

As long as I've been climbing, I've been witness to these sort of rumours and in my experience, once somebody gets on the receiving end of such things, it can take years for it to leave. And as usual, there's many wannabees who just like to pull somebody better than them down.

So, as I've said many times, you've got to be there and see these people in action before passing judgement.

[AndyR]

So what do you think? Is the Si O'Connor/ Steve Dunning/ Ben Heason debacle in anyway healthy for british climbing? How useful is it just to trust such self-publicists implicitly?

I suspect it is healthy in a funny kind of way - bouldering/climbing can be a pretty dry past time without a bit of human interest and it's always entertaining to see that the 'stars' might be fallible.

In terms of trusting self-publicists implicitly, I think anyone with a small amount of common sense should be able to apply their own news-filters and judgement as necessary.

[dave]

thing is, if you say "you can't doubt anyone without evidence" and theres no need for any ascents to be witnessed, then theres nothing to stop me registering an 8a.nu scorecard tomorrow, and over time claiming ascents and reporting them to mags. i would need no photos or witnesses to satisfy a lot of people.

but think for a minute. think of how many top climbers and other climbers you can name. and think of any many total liars you've named. Now to those of you who are now thinking "there arnet any" (like i would have done not so long ago) then consider this: Climbers in the UK form a general cross-section of society, generally middle class, some working class. Like the general population, there is a percentage of climbers that are female, a percentage gay, a percentage black, a percentage of gingers, a percentage of thiefs, a percentage of egomaniacs, a percentage of narcissist, and a percentage of cheats and liars. I can think of no good reason to think why there should be no cheats or liars within the sphere of top climbers - it just wouldn't happen. Like the way if you thought all coppers or politicians were straight you'd be naive.

Thus some top climbers are cheats. Who are they then? theres never much evidence for this kind of thing, and like JB say, much less people who are prepared to shout up, and neven less public outlets for it. Makes you think. Some people are cheats. word.

[Bubba]

Aye, there's undoubtably those who are bullshitters and I'm not saying everyone should believe everything that everyone else claims, but it seems that a lot of the time people are far too eager to jump on the slating/doubting bandwagon, just to be in with the current rumours.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and have confidence that time will usually out those who are liers, because in my experience, sooner or later most bullshitters slip up good and proper in their own mess.

[Johnny Brown]

So, as I've said many times, you've got to be there and see these people in action before passing judgement

My thoughts entirely. I don't believe or disbelieve anyone I haven't even seen climb. Then again, its dangerous to base opinions on someones bad day.

I have no idea why Ben Heason's name has been brought up

I've heard more rumours about him than the other two put together. And despite being at the crag with him a couple of times, I've not seen him climb. So again, niggling doubts remain.

I agree if you throw enough shit it starts to stick. But I also think there's no smoke without fire. Perhaps part of the problem is when people get a media profile they become wary of looking bad in public. So their climbing becomes more and more secretive. I'm sure that was a big part of the Dunne saga - particularly as his weight varied so much between being fit and unfit. Having said that even Andy Jack (dunne's belayer) said:
'John's a really honest guy... most of the time'
Hardly a bombproof endorsement.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

i personally feel that sometimes there is smoke without fire. for instance when did all the shit about dunning start cropping up? i seem to remember it was when he repeated dreamtime? thats when the planetfear thread started and he seems to have been tarred with it since? he came across as a very mellow guy not a loudmouthed knob which is what u'd expect from some one whos supposed to have been lying about making two of the most importan repeats britain (and switzerland) in the past few years?

simon i presume u know and believe him as he is regulaly featured in your article for climber each month. if u seriously doubted his ascents then (i presume) u wouldn't include them?

can't speak for o'connor but he's not living the high life driving ferraris and living in a million pound mansion up in the highlands is he? lets say simply for arguements sake (i personally doubt it very much) he is lying then he's not gaining anything from it apart from a load of abuse from people?

Buox 8c's ascent of Liquid Amber

buox 8c is richard simpson?

[Blunk]

the owen wrote:

Being a bit green in relative terms, I've found that this is just the way the climbing community is. Was it much different in the past? It's quite rare to meet a climber who's prepared to reserve judgement these days, even people who you'd genuinely expect to be above all this shit.

Things were indeed much different 20+ years ago. If you said you had done a route then folks would believe you unless you had a reputation as a liar.

It is getting ridiculous now. I recently had a nasty experience with some younger climbers in Wyoming. About 18 years ago myself and a friend put up a number of boulder problems and TR's in a small limestone area. I even wrote a guide to the place. Being a small venue and shit sharp very few people ever climbed there since. Couple of months ago these two lads got interested in the place and began "putting  up routes." My friend who climbed there with me informed them of our previous efforts and I sent them a copy of the guide. I found out later they disagreed with my ratings on some routes, which was enough justification for them to question that I had actually done the problems. The next step was to claim their routes as first ascents, often routes with aging bolts at their tops.

Absolutely amazing.

[Bubba]

That's just plain disrespectul - some people's egos just get the better of them   :roll:

[Buoux 8C]

I think its really a shame that rumours like this are in the climbing scene. I have met Steve on several occasions and can say that he is a really nice guy and certainly dosent strike me as been a person who would lie about any of his ascents. I cant definetly say that he has or hasnt done the stuff he has said he has, neither can he say that i have done the stuff i have claimed, as we havent climbed with each other enough to have witnessed them personally, but i have no reason to doubt him regarding the malicious rumours that are going around and i just hope that he can prove these critics wrong by repeating some hard stuff in front of them.
Same as heason really, i dont see why he would lie about his acents either, he's a nice guy, seams honest and dosent show any jealousy or bitterness towards any other climbers.

I think the main problem is that these two climbers in particular prefer, like many to climb in small groups or by themselves, but becasue they are claiming cutting edge stuff their is alot of doubt by them.
I personally prefer to climb alone or in a small group of friends and have actually done some hard stuff alone, but fortuanately i havent had the malicous rumours spread about me like other climbers, but i think that is to do with having enough of my stuff witnessed or enough people seing that i am fully capable of doing what i have claimed.

I just hope one way or the other that these rumours are even proven or squashed, so that if the guys are innocent they can be left alone to climb what they want without getting shit for it.

[Johnny Brown]

Things were indeed much different 20+ years ago. If you said you had done a route then folks would believe you unless you had a reputation as a liar.

I don't see how is that different to today. How did you get 'a reputation as a liar'?

The old 'outside the sheffield scene' argument doesn't hold water anymore either - Heason is right in the middle of it and yet is still doubted.

I think we really need to consider a real way of tackling this problem. Blind belief isn't working - as others have noted, it just means more and more rumours spread outside the mainstream media. When the media is simply written by the self-publicists, people lose trust in it, and then we have a problem.

Don't ignore the real dangers posed by lying about ascents, particularly with the up-and-coming generation who are concentrating on on-sights. Bad information could contribute to a serious accident.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

i think that some top climbers who don't really seek publicity don't actually care what other people think of them? its not hard to get a video camera tape yourself doing something and post it on web. they probably think why the fuck should i have to prove myself to a bunch of accusing wannabes.

[dave]

thing is, some people do activley seek publicity, and make money out of it. and if that is based on lies or bending the truths, then everyone who's bought a magazine with their article in, or bought gear by their sponsors, or paid to see them do a lecture has effectivley been conned out of money.

I know of one very famous current climber who's already been mentioned on this thread, and i've heard pleanty few rumours about deception. And a lot of them are from credible sources who have first hand experience of it. I now do not belive anything claimed by that person, as i find the evidence too compelling. Belive me i don't want to belive it cos it sickens me, and i'd love to believe that this person is far and away the best climber in the UK, as they stand to be. Call me sinical, but something stinks.

what annoys me more is that this person does make money from the kind of things i mentioned above, and that really sucks. Like bubba says, bullshitters always come out in the end, but if they've earned £££ from you and I along the way then are we right to take such a light line on it.

[Pantontino]

Just so there is no ambiguity here, I absolutely endorse and back Steve Dunning's achievements as a climber.

JB tags him as a self publicist, but all I've seen is just another keen, albeit extremely talented climber wishing to share information with other hardcore climbers. So he sends me pictures and details of his new problems for my Climber column, is that a crime? If it is, it's a crime that many people are guilty of, JB included. FFS if I'd done any of the amazing ascents that Steve has done I'd be shouting it from the roof tops with a fucking loud hailer.

Maybe he should have perfected a show pony circuit at Almscliffe or the Plantation. How remiss of Steve to waste time pursuing classic first ascents and hard repeats, when he really should've been polishing his myth in front of an awestruck crowd of sycophants.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

who dave? might as well name them. if the evidence is so compelling maybe other people will take a similar view?

[Doylo]

I can see why some folk like Johnny see fit to doubt others. Of course there are bullshitters out there, amongst punters and the elite. As for Ben he's a pretty good mate and i'm damn sure i'd know about it if he was bullshitting. I haven't seen him do any of his notable ascents, to be honest i haven't seen him do anything too notable. For lot of stuff he's done he has been on his own and i think this may be why Johnny has his doubts. Maybe i'd have my doubts if i didn't know him well. However, climbing means a lot to him and despite the publicity and piccies in mags etc.. i know the main reason he climbs is for himself. Plus he's as mad as a box of matches, he's bold as fuck, verging on having a deathwish if you ask me! Si's in a similar situation with Steve Dunning, he knows him well and trusts him. Maybe we're poor judges of character. At the end of the day we can't convince the world that someones not a bullshitter, they have to make their own mind up. Also I think with Steve Dunning a lot of people forget how tall he is (not taking anything away from his ability). Anyone who climbed with a lanky bastard (i'm talking about YOU Pasquill) knows what a difference height can make.

[dave]

who dave? might as well name them. if the evidence is so compelling maybe other people will take a similar view?

i'd rather not, simply cos anyone who's heard the rumours i've heard will already know who i mean. and if you ain't heard the rumours then i'd rather you find out for yourself and make your own decision, rather than having your opinion loaded by me giving you a name out of the blue. plus if you hear the name before the rumours, you won't beleive it anyway.

plus the rumours could all be wrong. probably a slim chance, but a chance all the same. plus i'm a coward.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

has the person made money from there claims though? as in getting free shit and money from sponsors if so then its very very wrong but if not then don't u think that they're only kidding themselves?

[jonP]

I know of one very famous current climber who's already been mentioned on this thread ...

... what annoys me more is that this person does make money from the kind of things i mentioned above ...

If you don't say who you mean I'll jump to conclusions, and I'm bound to be wrong, so I think you should tell us all!