[nik at work]

28/02/04 14:15
the cheating way
kim and cofe present

And I thought I was sad and trainspottery - I mean the time FFS.

And just in case you totally misunderstood me I wasn't casting any doubts about your ascent (apart from the cheaty tallness of your technique :D ) just making the point that did anyone wish to question you about a claim then here is a reasonable place to do it cos you are here to represent yourself. Whereas some of the other people mentioned on this thread do not have the same pressence on this forum and alternative means of investigation would be more approriately deployed. I'm sure you did get the point but this is the type of topic/thread where statments could easily go misinterpretted.

So to sumarise Dave has done everything he says he has and anyone says any different i'll bite there bloody ankles, reet bo...

[Pantontino]

I would like to go back to some of the points about the climbing media that JB and Nigel raised.
I don't think that the commercial imperative/ego drive is that new a thing. Maybe there is more at stake these days, but, back in the 80s, expectations were lower (most hardcore climbers were poorer than yer average tramp),. Anyway, I don't think things were that different back then (as Webbo has pointed out). I've been climbing for about 20 years and apart from the first few years when I was too starry eyed and naïve to know any better, I've always been aware of disputed ascents and suspected liars within the scene.
 
Perhaps the climbing press has changed, in that production standards have been significantly raised (especially of late), leading most sponsored climbers to not even bother trying to get first ascent images; preferring instead to go back with a pro photographer to make sure that they get a good quality image, both for the photo incentive cash and for the portfolio, should they decide to jump sponsors at a future date. These photos are pretty much useless as evidence – everyone accepts that it is acceptable to not repeat a hard head point or boulder problem. With the former: why put your life on the line again? With the latter, a repeat ascent is unlikely for a whole host of credible reasons (the critical combination of conditions, luck, performance and first time desire).

A mag editor could accept and use more ‘actual first ascent' photos, but in the light of what I've just described – who is going to provide? Furthermore, what does a shaky dull photo tell you? This will never be conclusive evidence.
I don't think it is fair to blame the mags exclusively for the current situation. If you want to blame anyone – blame the gear companies who construct the photo incentive deals. Is there such a thing as bad publicity? Do these companies actually care if their sponsored star has a bad reputation – probably not if they're being talked about.

Controversy, to a certain extent, has a commercial worth – just look at the recent PF forum debacle for a slightly different slant on this. I'm sure that one of the reasons why the public hanging of Steve Dunning by an army of anonymous cowards was tolerated for so long, was because the site controllers felt it would bring more traffic to their site. (I did hear people mention freedom of speech at the time, but as far as I'm concerned that freedom should only be granted to those prepared to stand up and be counted, as they are on this forum.)

The internet is an interesting phenomena – it has so many positive aspects, but it is a double edged sword. There is no doubt that it has encouraged a regrettable (although occasionally comic) element of fantasy to infect our climbing scene. On the one hand it is good because it makes the whole news culture more democratic and open to players outside of the traditional cliques, yet without effective editorial control we have anarchy.

To finish my late night ramble; thinking about some of JB's comments, I guess I should accept a degree of responsibility for what is happening.
In the 4 years that I have been writing my Climber column, I have given a lot of column inches and photo coverage to sponsored climbers, and if I'm honest there is a tendency to go with the easiest option. Sponsored climbers do make my life easy – they send me prompt updates and are always keen to arrange photo sessions. When a stunning photograph of a sponsored climber lands on my desk, it is hard to not just go with it.

I guess I need to dig deeper and research more thoroughly to find the unsung heroes and underground stars, busy cranking away from the glare of the limelight.

And I guess, that top players will have to accept that video footage or a sizable roll call of credible witnesses is the only way they will keep the wolves of doubt at bay.

[Johnny Brown]

All good points from the big man...

However as a photographer I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get great shots on the day. Sam Whittaker is a case in point - on his recent ascent of Appointment with Death. The mags got great shots of a real ascent - in fact had he returned to pose I'm positive the shots wouldn't have been as good. Hanging off the jug at the end of the crux covered in logos is a poor substitute for a bit of real action. Now you can blame both climbers and photographers for taking the easy option - essentially results are less guaranteed and a little more effort is required. This debate has firmed my resolve never to take the easy option.

nik at work says he's done many of his ascents alone. Well I've met enough witnesses and seen enough photos to have no beef with whatever he says. And his ascent of Doug remains about the highpoint of gritstone on-sighting - again witnessed. What is of concern is the very few who appear to have done every hard ascent unwitnessed.

[dave]

28/02/04 14:15
the cheating way
kim and cofe present

And I thought I was sad and trainspottery - I mean the time FFS.

one of the perks of a digital camera!

[AndyR]

After the Irish Bouldering Team Manager had given us our prep talk at the crag yesterday, we got to talking about this thread, and I think I can honestly say, on behalf of everyone who was there, that I'm really disappointed this hasn't turned into a total shit flinging event, as that's what we were all really hoping to find when we got back after the weekend :cry:

Oh well, back to my copy of Heat magzine.......

[a dense loner]

After the Irish Bouldering Team Manager had given us our prep talk at the crag yesterday

could you drop this in a few more times andy? r u on the irish bouldering team per chance then :wink:

after all the talk on here, does anyone think any differently than before? has this been a good exercise or a waste of time for us?

[a dense loner]

but on another note, it has took an hour out of my life catchin up wi what's been said :D

[Bubba]

after all the talk on here, does anyone think any differently than before? has this been a good exercise or a waste of time for us?

Well, when it came to the crunch and time to actually name names and come up with the goods everyone suddenly went very quiet or started backpeddling....which is just what I expected.

So, no, no real good has come of it and everyone can just go back to bitching in private and spreading the rumours  :roll:

[Johnny Brown]

So, no, no real good has come of it and everyone can just go back to bitching in private and spreading the rumours

I don't agree - for one we've established this is the only place on the web such a debate can take place without descending into farce. Nice one Bubbs.... :up:

And we've also established that if people are churning out big numbers entirely unwitnessed they can expect a bit of scepticism, and not unreasonably. So maybe we'll see a bit less of it in future, which can only lead to less doubt, less bitchin and a better scene for all.

...and as I mentioned earlier, there has been a few PMs flying about that have put a few minds a rest without embarassing anyone. I know that its a bit cliquey and some of you will be foaming at the bit to know more, but its better than public slagging. If you're still foaming, bring a fiver to the next bouldrin meet and I'll tell all :wink:

...and maybe we'll see less photos of logo-plastered heroes hanging on jugs. I doubt it though... over-caffeinated sugary drink company anyone? :321:

[AndyR]

After the Irish Bouldering Team Manager had given us our prep talk at the crag yesterday

could you drop this in a few more times andy? r u on the irish bouldering team per chance then :wink:

Alas, it's just a peurile piss-take of Dave 'Irish Bouldering Guru' Flanagan.

Even if such a thing existed, I think a few eye-brows would be raised at having a fat grey English punter on the team - mind you, when you look at their football team, being Irish is just a state of mind

[a dense loner]

n for english managers as well

[Nigel]

As quite an amazing real time case study in how rumours start due to jealousy check out Marcus Bock questioning Gaskins on 8a.nu!!!  :shock:  Tut tut Marcus.  :roll:

Just in case you are of the "no smoke without fire" persuasion, just remember that this is a single smoke particle from someone whose hardest problem ever just got done in 3 days by a visiting alien. Plus you have to also explain away:

Witnessed doing Hubble and in latter years staticing it.
Witnessed doing Staminaband-PUTP in 10 minutes.
Witnessed doing the moves on the Brandenburg Gate project, V15.
Videoed (!) basically doing Isla d'Encanta V13 in terrible conditions.
Videoed doing Anasthesia  V13  wearing a fleece!
Witnessed by Mark Glaister doing all moves on Kaizen.
Witnessed by Greg Chapman doing At The Heart Of It All V14 in 2 sections (if you have seen it this will be dismaying).
etc etc....I could go on.

This is also a case study of how important it is to have witnesses/video for harder ascents these days.

[Buoux 8C]

Witnessed doing Hubble and in latter years staticing it.
Witnessed doing Staminaband-PUTP in 10 minutes.
Witnessed doing the moves on the Brandenburg Gate project, V15.
Videoed (!) basically doing Isla d'Encanta V13 in terrible conditions.
Videoed doing Anasthesia  V13  wearing a fleece!
Witnessed by Mark Glaister doing all moves on Kaizen.
Witnessed by Greg Chapman doing At The Heart Of It All V14 in 2 sections (if you have seen it this will be dismaying).
etc etc....I could go on.

yes it sounds really bad for gaskins. i personally cant see it been true about him lying, he has obviously worked very hard for climbing over the last years, and someone who has put in that type of motivation and hard work would almost certainly not spoil it by lying.
However i have met Markus on occasions and he seams a very honest guy who is not the type of person to make up any shit without believing it himself. He is not a jealous guy at all towards foreign climbers repeatiing the stuff he has done in the Jura or hasnt been able to do.
So its really a shit situation to be in for gaskins, markus is very respected in germany and if he has an opinion most other climbers will believe it, the good thing is Gaskins obviously only climbs for himself so shouldnt really care what they think.
The only way he can change their opinion is to go back and repeat it in front of then, thats a sorry state of affairs.

[Johnny Brown]

seems to be the way things are going, sad to see. having said that, whytf anyone goes on 8a.nu is beyond me. What a load of bollox
Big up Dave though - 17th!

[dave]

its gratifying to know that theres only 16 people in the uk who are better at bouldering than me.

yeah right.

[jonP]

All this 8a.nu bashing is a bit Rocktalk-esque.

[Bonjoy]

Yeah dave your sure kicking that richard simpson guys ass :wink: .
 BTW Clash of the Titans 7a, ouch!

[dave]

i was feeling generous!

[a dense loner]

the way i read it. bockstar shows gaskins how to do it, he can't touch it, not nearly does it but, can't touch it. then 2 days later gaskins tells bock he's done it. then says he's done an 8b+ but when asked it turns out he's done a 7c. is anyone surprised that bock doesn't believe him?
i don't really care to read any reply from greg or nigel tellin us how strong he is. i know how strong he is, i do not doubt. however it is fairly obvious that markus does n it is his hardest bit of climbin. i also see no problem with someone altering the grade of their problem on reflection.
let me emphasize for some of you, i am not doubtin godskins but if some of you can't see why markus is ...

[Stu Littlefair]

Yep, I can see why Markus has his doubts. I also find Gaskins' explanations perfectly reasonable. I can understand why someone who had been bouldering for nearly nine hours might not be able to do the moves on an 8c.

Had Markus bothered to talk to Gaskins he might have received a satisfactory explanation, but instead he sent an email to a climbing "news" website. That email will no doubt spark a whole host of rumours. And THAT, children, is why we end up with threads like this one.  

[squeek]

is anyone surprised that bock doesn't believe him?

No, I'm surprised he's told the world about his opinions before he's talked to Gaskins about them, esecially as they'd been talking to each other and he had Gaskins' Mobile number.

He should have given Gaskins the right to reply to him before he had to reply to the arm chair critics because :

1) It's fair.
2) How would Bock look if Gaskins did have a video of the ascent that went on a web site after he'd been publically saying Gaskins couldn't have done it?

[Pantontino]

Well said Stu, you've echoed my thoughts exactly.

[Nigel]

Quite right Stu, it is the way this has been handled that is extremely disappointing.

[Bonjoy]

That email will no doubt spark a whole host of rumours. And THAT, children, is why we end up with threads like this one.  

Well said Stu, you've echoed my thoughts exactly.

 Hold on a minute, who authored this thread? :roll:  :wink:

[dave]

I recon we bet bockhead over here, give him a 9hour session on the bowderstone then set him going on il pirata.    :wink: