Quote from: shark on June 09, 2014, 12:26:46 pmQuote from: Hydraulic Man on June 09, 2014, 12:07:39 pmOn another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htmI recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either. The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag. Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?
Quote from: Hydraulic Man on June 09, 2014, 12:07:39 pmOn another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htmI recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.
On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
If trad climbers aren't cleaning certain buttresses and climbing them (and in many cases haven't done so for decades) their moral authority with respect to what happens with those buttresses is diminished.
What about Ravens Tor? ... Just because the resulting routes are high in the grade scale is not at all a justification for doing this there and not at other easier crags.
it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.
Quote from: Johnny Brown on June 11, 2014, 09:01:30 pm it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.I honestly think that's already happened with the upsurge in climbing walls, certainly in Northampton, miles from rock and a fairly new wall.
I'm guessing this was one of the E6s near The Alien on Central buttress? I don't recall any success in keeping the debate focused on one route. Not helped by Seb's bolts effectively retro bolting St Paul, the classic E3. In an ideal world your bolts would have been approved and Seb's might not, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't encourage inappropriate bolt spread when it's already in progress...Perhaps a better approach would be that folk like yourself and Kris would get approved by the area committee as responsible persons, and be given carte Blanche to do as you like, acknowledging that you'd be better informed than the rest of the meeting (bar the chair as a rule!). But then you guys are never the problem so it's a bit pointless... Did you bolt it or what?
Has there ever been much of a trad lime scene though? Even 25 years ago in Matlock, Dovedale, Beeston it was rare to see anyone else around.
Quote from: slackline on June 11, 2014, 07:34:31 amI generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me; There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too.
I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;
Seb did put up a bolted 7c just left of Behemoth and replaced pegs with bolts on the next line left again. The route in question is right of Behemoth.
It struck me that if the meeting couldn’t give the green light (or even give a clear no) to the retro-ing of this route, then it was fair to assume that whatever else it may profess it was in reality incapable of ever agreeing to a retro bolt
I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes
QuoteI also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routesNo, I think that was supported but 'twas a bit vague who would do it and how.For myself I went twice and did a few routes - concluding that retrobolting had already started affecting routes like St. Paul, but that some of the harder routes like Alien were still fine. I've got a vague feeling that someone had suggested retroing Alien and having done it was strongly against. I'd not oppose the retroing of some other routes if indeed reliant on pegs and done sensitively, but the Alien experience made me a bit wary - I'd be inclined to take a couple out before I put any in.. There was a lot of total choss at either end which I would prefer to be left than turned into shit sport routes. Access here remains pretty sensitive too.
We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.
Nice one Chris - that's good news. I also like the idea of just replacing the situ gear, as hanging on for grim death fiddling in wires was always part of the experience on these routes as well.