[Snoops]

Theres a slight paradox here. I'm struggling to imagine a HVS climber, being arsed to bang a bolt in for the sake of the bottom pitches. If they were that desperate to do them and worried about getting down, they'd of just put a TR up.
If someone felt so strongly about making it 'safer', you would think they'd come out in public.

[chris j]

Just a thought but isn't the real cause of the problem the guidebook descriptions? Describing 'easier' routes finishing at the cave is guaranteed to lead to HVS climbers, umm... finishing at the cave..., and bring with it all the inevitable 'need a proper ab point' attention from that crowd. The solution is to describe all of the routes on keyhole cave wall as E3-5 finishing out of the cave to the top...

Going back to my 1991 Froggatt guide, that is exactly what was described, with no suggestion that it's a good thing to take the tick for just the first pitch. I'll give you two guesses as to whose popular groundbreaking selective guide first suggested the first parts of Oxford St and Piccadilly Circus were worthwhile as HVS in their own right...

For me, like Kelvin (good to meet you at Torbryan) I always aspired to do the routes in full and hence never got on the lower parts, seeing it as a cop out to only go to the cave. [/pious high horse moment]

What description do the current BMC guides give?

[Sloper]

If it stays in, presumably justified by convenience and "safety", then you could probably justify a bolt lower off on just about any millstone route with a sandy biscuit top. Hence it has to go. If people want convenience routes we got plenty elsewhere. And the fact it's a quarry not natural grit should have no bearing on it either. As far as climbers are concerned its grit, its the found environment. You wouldn't stick a bolt on great slab.

Folk wanting to ab out the cave can set up a hanging rope from above.

10% agree. thin end of the wedge.

[petejh]

I wouldn't expect rockfax to have any inherent interest in what's best for a climbing area beyond what's best for rockfax's bank balance. So it doesn't surprise that the suggestion may have first started in their comics.
The BMC's 2006 'Burbage, Millstone and Beyond' describes the routes topping out but also makes it clear (in brackets for each route) that a popular choice is to climb the first pitch to the cave at HVS. So there's the issue. Both guides have contributed to the problem by making it clear that doing a short HVS pitch to the cave then abbing off is 'a good thing'. Fair enough - but it understandably leads to people wanting a 'good ab anchor' at the top of their 'great hvs'.

[Will Hunt]

Out of interest, what do people on the thread make of having bolted lower offs at The Roost?

[mrjonathanr]

You wouldn't stick a bolt on great slab.

It'd be a lot more popular though. Just saying   ..

[slackline]

Out of interest, what do people on the thread make of having bolted lower offs at The Roost?

Or Sargent Crags Slabs in Langstrath (Borrowdale)?

I believe it was placed after an old rotting tree was removed.  I was there a fortnight or so ago and sapplings have also been planted but it'll be a while before they are sturdy enough to abseil off.  There's some rusty chains on the other side around a tree, but with plastic cover on presumably to help prevent erosion but actually obscuring a proper assessment of the condition of the chain.  Walking off is an option but would result in significant erosion to the flora.

[Jaspersharpe]

You wouldn't stick a bolt on great slab.

It'd be a lot more popular though. Just saying   ..

Stick a belay in at the top too. It's mostly used by top ropers so this would make it easier for them.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Paul B]

What's quite worrying here (to me anyway) is the try it and see mentality of whoever placed it.

If this has been discussed (which it has) and deemed unacceptable (which it was), then simply put, it is. Acting outside of that is somewhat selfish behaviour and I think it's fairly cowardly to not stand by your decision.

Off with his head

[danm]

Out of interest, what do people on the thread make of having bolted lower offs at The Roost?

Or Sargent Crags Slabs in Langstrath (Borrowdale)?

I believe it was placed after an old rotting tree was removed.  I was there a fortnight or so ago and sapplings have also been planted but it'll be a while before they are sturdy enough to abseil off.  There's some rusty chains on the other side around a tree, but with plastic cover on presumably to help prevent erosion but actually obscuring a proper assessment of the condition of the chain.  Walking off is an option but would result in significant erosion to the flora.

I was involved* in the high spirited removal of the first iteration of a bolted lower off at this crag when I lived in the Lakes. Me and a buddy who'd done the removal decided to go to our local BMC meeting (we'd never been to one or been members before) to show off our trophy. We were crestfallen when we found out that some of the old giffers there did a metric fuckton of behind the scenes work and negotiating on our behalf for access, and that the landowner (NT) had specifically requested a lower off to prevent the destruction of the soil and plants at the sides of the crag. We had in fact, pissed off the landowner and threatened access by our actions. Suitably full of remorse, I decided to find out a bit more about the BMC and eventually ended up working for them.

A totally different scenario to the Millstone one, I'd say. I think Paul B encapsulates things perfectly really.

*I loaned some of the removal tools and would've done the deed but couldn't get the day off when the team went out to remove it.

[rich d]

I was thinking of going up on Friday after work and chopping it. But I don't know how to get down once I've done that 

[fatdoc]

Just a thought but isn't the real cause of the problem the guidebook descriptions? Describing 'easier' routes finishing at the cave is guaranteed to lead to HVS climbers, umm... finishing at the cave..., and bring with it all the inevitable 'need a proper ab point' attention from that crowd. The solution is to describe all of the routes on keyhole cave wall as E3-5 finishing out of the cave to the top, and mention in passing that it's possible to do the first pitches only, at hvs/whatever, if you construct a pre-rigged ab point from above. The horse leads the cart. Elitist?

Nailed it mate.

[nik at work]

As I understand it the roost tops out in someones garden so a condition of access is the lower offs. If landowners want to insist on lower offs for their own reasons then it seems entirely reasonable to place them.
Millstone has none of these issues. Not sure what's more outrageous that the bolt has been placed or that it appears to have support.  Sad times. Could someone please take it out. (I might be in the peak in august so if it's still there then I'll bring an angle grinder).

Or what Dave said.

Oh yeah nearly forgot, burn the witch!

[Bonjoy]

Just had a look on UKC. It's true, a fair proportion on there do actually think this a good thing!  Can't see the thing surviving the weekend mind.

[fatdoc]

Fair enough....

[dave]

Consensus at the BMC meeting tonight was overwhelmingly that those present disagreed with the bolt in keyhole. Thus it would be safe to assume that anyone removing said bolt would enjoy a fair bit of support from Peak climbers in general. Which is fortunate.

[petejh]

Did anyone get as far as discussing the merits or otherwise of the BMC and cockfax guidebooks describing the routes as being 'great hvs's to an abseil from the cave', and the inevitable outcome of this being people expecting to able to, you know, abseil without undue drama from the cave? Might be more useful to think about in the long term.

[dave]

No but next time I'll ask what we can do about people with no common sense assuming that the state of affairs with ancient rusty relics when the guide was printed will still be the same 9 years later.

[slackline]

Did anyone get as far as discussing the merits or otherwise of the BMC and cockfax guidebooks describing the routes as being 'great hvs's to an abseil from the cave', and the inevitable outcome of this being people expecting to able to, you know, abseil without undue drama from the cave? Might be more useful to think about in the long term.

I've just looked at my guide for Millstone (BMC Burbage Millstone and Beyond 2005) and of the routes into the cave two include mention of HVS for the first pitch...

138 Oxford Street E3 5a, 6b * 1956/69
22m A lovely HVS crack followed by a classic roof struggle.  Superb, steep hand-jamming leads to the sandy cave. Beef over the roof crack to the right then mince up the easy wall above.  The difficult section is phenomenally well-protected.

140 Picadilly Circus E2 5a, 5c * 1957-65*76
25m Two contrasting pitches combine to yield the easiest way up the wall.  Climb the delightful natural finger crack to a landing in the sandy cave (a great HVS 5a by itself). Belay. From here, beetle leftwards to a thin crack which leads to a ledge. Exciting while it lasts. Finish up Skywalk

Both describe the first pitch as  "[great|lovely] HVS", but neither mention an abseil.  The topo has a white dot where the belay is, but does not describe what this symbol represents and in no way suggests (to me at least) that its a bolted belay.

That they do mention the first pitches as HVS seems to me to be done simply to indicate that they can be protected easily rather than being runout 5a climbing (unsurprising given they are both cracks) and does not appear to encourage the reader to climb them in their own right and then abseil off.

[Boredboy]

The BMC guide does mention abseiling off the rusty spike at your own discretion, in italics.

[Will Hunt]

As I understand it the roost tops out in someones garden so a condition of access is the lower offs. If landowners want to insist on lower offs for their own reasons then it seems entirely reasonable to place them.
Millstone has none of these issues. Not sure what's more outrageous that the bolt has been placed or that it appears to have support.  Sad times. Could someone please take it out. (I might be in the peak in august so if it's still there then I'll bring an angle grinder).

Or what Dave said.

Oh yeah nearly forgot, burn the witch!

Bearing in mind that some of the arguments in this thread have been: "it's a bolt on grit, therefore it must go", does that need amending to include "unless an access situation depends upon it"? Or is the answer to simply not climb on the crag?

If these were not two "great/lovely" HVSs and were instead two 3* E5s - and let's say that the first is a Bancroft route and the second an Allen route - that finished at the cave and could go no further simply because the wall above was perfectly (i mean properly, never climbable by anyone, blank), what would be the situation then?

Just paying devils advocate...

[chris j]

Then whatever means the first ascensionists used to get down would still be used and renewed periodically? Pegs/stake/ or use a pre-placed ab rope?

But as they're E5s you wouldn't have hordes of the great unwashed steaming their way up to the cave and demanding it be made safe for them and there-in lies the problem.

[Oldmanmatt]

Just paying devils advocate...

You're giving Sloper money?

The bolting debate is always subjective. Always, regardless of where, rock type or the price of fish.

Each route, buttress, crag and Uncle Tom Cobbley; have to be considered individually.

No?

[slackline]

The BMC guide does mention abseiling off the rusty spike at your own discretion, in italics.

At work now so don't have the guide, I only read the route descriptions earlier.

That it states the gear is dubious ("rusty") and to use discretion does not come across as an endorsement or advocation of doing so or promoting doing the first two pitches of either route and then abseiling.

[petejh]

Slackers - I don't think there's any question that the BMC guide suggests that a good HVS experience can be had on Keyhole Wall by just climbing to the cave and abseiling off, it's clearly implied by reading the italicised intro to the wall:
'The next routes reach the cave via friendly crack lines then reach the top of the wall by more challenging means. Many climbers tend to lower-off from an in-situ spike in the cave'.
and combined with the two route descriptions you quoted which suggest 'lovely' and 'great' HVS's to the cave.

I'm not having a go - Dave. But it's obvious to 'anyone with common sense' that the problem is guidebooks putting the idea in people's minds to climb half an E2 to make it a good HVS, while not thinking through the consequences of there only being an ancient rusty relic as the means of retreat. The phantom bolter is the almost inevitable manifestation of this.