[slackline]

Personally I always looked at the various bits of tat in the cave that you could see from the ground and thought "I'm not going up there until I can climb out the top" 'cause they all looked ancient and shit from the ground.

Maybe just me and my cautious approach though, I guess there are plenty of people with blind faith in guide book writers.

[petejh]

That it states the gear is dubious ("rusty") and to use discretion does not come across as an endorsement or advocation of doing so or promoting doing the first two pitches of either route and then abseiling.

Oh come off it - that's just a disclaimer. Like the disclaimer at the front of every guidebook, which essentially states that the whole of 'climbing' is basically dubious and 'to use discretion' - are you saying they don't endorsing climbing as a result.
Or the disclaimer that just because routes are described doesn't mean we have the legal right to access the land. We all know the score.

[nik at work]

If these were not two "great/lovely" HVSs and were instead two 3* E5s - and let's say that the first is a Bancroft route and the second an Allen route - that finished at the cave and could go no further simply because the wall above was perfectly (i mean properly, never climbable by anyone, blank), what would be the situation then?

Just paying devils advocate...

I can think of several walls that are hard climbs until a blank (I mean properly, never climbable by anyone, blank) section. At sport crags these tend to dictate where the lower off is placed (or in Spain where the bolt-ons start... ) at trad crags all the lines I can think of are rightly unclimbed, or they are climbed with a pre-placed rope to lower off (tends to be with very loose top-outs).

At Millstone there was some dodgy wotnot in place which was an historical relic of questionable security, absolutely anybody with a reasonable trad skillset could get down from the cave safely. If was pulled out and...
...absolutely anybody with a reasonable trad skillset could get down from the cave safely.
Now there's a HUGE bolt in an accepted no-bolts trad area and...
...absolutely anybody with a rope could get down from the cave safely.

I credit HVS climbers with the skill to cope in variable trad situations. If you need a whacking great bolt to climb this HVS then you may be able to climb an HVS but you don't have the trad skills to be an HVS climber.

FWIW I am not anti-bolts. I spent yesterday evening bolting up a new line at a new crag. I have also placed bolts at the top of a local trad crag to be used as belay/ab points, for a couple of reasons they were preferable to belay stakes. However in the Millstone situation I would strongly object to the placement of the bolt. My opinion is just that however, and is somewhat irrelevant if general concensus is other than this. The fundamental point seems to me to be that the placing of a bolt was discussed at the correct forum (the BMC meet) and it was decided not to place one, so until the issue is again discussed and a different agreement is reached no bolt should be placed. This bolt should be removed ASAP.

[slackline]

Advising discretion != endorsement


"This is what people do" != "Go and do this"

EDIT : Also, I don't own the Rockfax guides so have just looked up the route descriptions on UKClimbing (they're unsurprisingly the same on the Rockfax database page)

Piccadilly Circus   ** E2 5c 24m. The middle finger crack leads to the cave (worthwhile at HVS 5b) and poor belays - best continue. A tricky traverse left and thin wall gain a ledge on the arete. Trend right to finish. FFA. Steve Bancroft 1976

Oxford Street   ** E3 6b The wide left-hand crack (a stiff HVS 5a pitch) leads to the cave; poor belays, it is better to press-on. A very hard move through the notch in the overhang (good gear but awkward to place - especially for the short) accesses the easier upper wall.
FAA. Peter Biven 1956. FFA. Phil Burke 1969

Both have quite a few ascents logged of only the first pitch, but thats not Rockfax/UKClimbing advocating doing so.

Whether these have been recently edited in light of the appearance and the ensuing discussion I don't know, but I personally wouldn't read either BMC or Rockfax as having...

BMC and cockfax guidebooks describing the routes as being 'great hvs's to an abseil from the cave'

I know you have a poor relationship with Rockfax in light of their North Wales select guide but it appears to have slightly jaded your opinion here.

[Jim]

Imo it comes down to a convenience for some hvs climbers(myself included) vs a precedent that's it's OK to bolt grit. It's a no brainer, chop it

[petejh]

Of course it shouldn't be there and should be chopped, it's a bolt halfway up a gritstone E2/3/5. I'm just amazed that some climbers can't see why some other climbers might have felt a need for it to be placed.

[shark]

a precedent that's it's OK to bolt grit.

The cave is sandstone - soft sandstone at that rather than grit. A technical point I know.

It sounds like from what JB said that its not a standard bolt but a U shaped piece of mild steel driven into an old hole with metal most likely old aid detritus and glued into place.

So not a standard bolt and if you were to draw a continuum from a glue in and the driven stake that was there before this new piece of ironmongery is somewhere between the two.

Oxford Street is a good jamming crack at HVS. Doing this on its own and abbing off would be a nice thing to do which the new piece of metal allows from what I gather and if considered in isolation it is a practical, common sense thing to do. It does seem like the mental shutters come straight down when certain talismanic words are uttered ie bolts on grit.

I don't have a strong opinion though mildly in favour which is what I said at last nights meeting.   

[Johnny Brown]

It's a giant U-staple. Both ends have been drilled and glued, they've just chosen to drill one end into an existing rusty relic. So on your stake-glue-in continuum, it's right at the glue-in end, before you consider the intent of the quarrymen/ aid climbers. The only nod to history was to put it in shit rock instead of the solid bits, but it's still plenty strong.

[galpinos]

The fundamental point seems to me to be that the placing of a bolt was discussed at the correct forum (the BMC meet) and it was decided not to place one, so until the issue is again discussed and a different agreement is reached no bolt should be placed. This bolt should be removed ASAP.

Surely this is the key point. It's against the consensus so has to go?

[cowboyhat]

Glad of your contributions on the other channel Johnny, it is a sensibly reasoned argument.

When I first a look at this all yesterday I thought I felt fairly neutral about it. I'm not particularly principled and therefore was interested in how it would develop.

Then I remembered that when I was about fifteen I had exactly the experience that the bolt will prevent: I waltzed up the first pitch of Coventry Street and then had a proper faffing nightmare adrenaline is brown setup wondering about what to do to get pout of the cave. (My dad couldn't second, I had scant trad skillz, etc etc); anyway the point is:

It was an experience. And I am better for it. That is what all this is about right?

Personally I always looked at the various bits of tat in the cave that you could see from the ground and thought "I'm not going up there until I can climb out the top" 'cause they all looked ancient and shit from the ground.

YES.

[chris j]

Slackers

The 2001 Rockfax description for Oxford Street was 'a good HVS 5a pitch' and no mention of poor belays. Piccadilly Circus was as now but indifferent rather than poor belays. That guide was certainly the first encouragement I'd seen that it was ok to consider doing the cracks as routes in their own right.

Shark, I'm sorry but your continuum sounds like a degree of sophistry. I'm against convenience and in favour of requiring character building faff in this instance, just because of the precedence it will set in the minds of morons who may then go and do something monumentally stupid  with drill, glue and steel off their own bat.

[petejh]

I know you have a poor relationship with Rockfax in light of their North Wales select guide but it appears to have slightly jaded your opinion here.

My point isn't about BMC or cockfax - that's just me being immature and calling rockfax names. My point stands that the current BMC guidebook and previous cockfax(s) suggest the first pitch followed by a descent from the cave is - feasible, a common practice and, in the case of the most recent BMC guide a 'great/lovely' HVS. Perhaps it doesn't suggests that to you in your perfect logic bubble, or to me in my 'I want to climb the E2/3/5 route and top-out bubble', or to Dave in his 'anyone with common sense can see' bubble, but to many people who are guided by what they read in guides it does suggest that.

[Johnny Brown]

I waltzed up the first pitch of Coventry Street and then had a proper faffing nightmare adrenaline is brown setup wondering about what to do to get pout of the cave.

Not so long ago we did the full pitch - on reflection part of what makes it such a great pitch is the contrast of two stiff-but-safe vertical 6a/b sections separated by proper overhanging bold chossy weirdness. That bit now has a huge bolt in it, and really should be removed on those grounds alone.

[webbo]

I was wondering why if you went to trouble of drilling the gluing in a new bolt, you would use something that would rust. Then I thought given the current summer weather in a couple of weeks it will start to look like its been there years. So the majority of folk who have had the experience of lowering off the old piece of crap in the cave are unlikely to be rushing to repeat the experience, the only people using the bolt will be people who have not seen it before and think the rusty bolt is whats described in the guide book.
So is this all part of a master plan for retro bolting by stealth.

[SamT]

Picking up on Sharks comment

"The cave is sandstone - soft sandstone at that rather than grit. A technical point I know."

Bit of a red herring is that, its sandstone pocket on a gritstone 'edge'.  - there are pockets of soft sandstone on other edges - curbar and stanage for example.

Also  - re it being a quarry. Also a red herring IMHO.  By that token, Rivelin edge, Curbar, Froggat, Burbage South, Gardoms and Chatsworth are also fair game then, as they have quarried areas of grit.

To me, its quite clear that regardless of guidebook comments, non issues over access, that new fixed gear on millstone edge is un-acceptable.  Its pandering to climbing wall mentality of convenience and safety of those not able to finish the full pitches.
It was done against consensus and it sets a precedent for future generations.

HVS trad leaders are hardly short of available routes are they.

[dave]

As it stands anyone could still climb to the ledge, stick a couple of cams at the top of the crack then lower off, and ab from the top for the gear. Or walk to the right end of the cave and see if you fancy abbing off the peg currently with a krab on it. Or go and do one of the other great easy access HVSs within 30seconds walk.

[PipeSmoke]

It's not like they are  being forced to climb a route that requires a pain in the ass abseil or whatever, it's only unsafe when people decide to climb it.

I can see however it would make it a lot easier and does almost make sense, but where would you draw the line if allowed this? And it's a bit out of order to do it on the sly when the person who did it knew it would likely evoke a strong reaction

[Jaspersharpe]

I see the cocktalk thread is up to the usual standard. 

[shark]

Shark, I'm sorry but your continuum sounds like a degree of sophistry.

Why, thank you 

[dave]

I see the cocktalk thread is up to the usual standard. 

I wouldn't usually rubberneck or indulge in schadenfreude buts its amazing isn't it?

[Jaspersharpe]

I only had a look because I gathered that JB was fucking the idiots yeah.

[Offwidth]

As it stands anyone could still climb to the ledge, stick a couple of cams at the top of the crack then lower off, and ab from the top for the gear. Or walk to the right end of the cave and see if you fancy abbing off the peg currently with a krab on it. Or go and do one of the other great easy access HVSs within 30seconds walk.

....and what I don't get, given this, is how the guidebooks are at fault. The ironmongery was pretty rusted (and hardly likely to remain  bomber) when the books were produced and there is always a warning somewhere to those who forget that fully relying on rusted fixed gear (even big rusted bars) is a bit dim.

Also, why can't people climb a good HVS, finishing on a ledge, that also happens to be the first half of an E2/3. The rock choreographs our game, not the grade of the coolest way to climb it.... or are costumes de-riguer now for Masters Edge at a grade notch harder.

[petejh]

It's not a blame game. I pointed out the obvious - that the routes go to the top but the various editions and versions of the guidebook(s) make it clear there's a common HVS cop-out. Just the act of mentioning there's a commonly-done HVS cop-out makes it inevitable that more people will be aware, and hence possibly attracted by, the option of abbing from the ledge. I'm not saying that's either right or wrong - it's a bloomin rock climb! But it amazes me that some people think what's written in the guide has no bearing on what happens out on the crag.
If I were to tell you that Wall of the Evening Light - a 35m nationally significant 7b+ sport route - makes a still superb 7a+ to a set of mid-height anchors (that I put in to allow retreat wit ha single 60m rope), then it's almost guaranteed to attract people who previously wouldn't have considered it an option for them. It isn't complicated. People follow suggestions they otherwise might not have even considered.

In this context, the more people who just climb to the ledge, following a suggestion that it makes a good HVS to there, the more demand there's likely to be for a solid retreat anchor. Skip forward in time and a commonly-used lump of iron anchor dissapears and someone thinks there should be something equally 'ferrous' and solid to replace it. Is this really any surprise?!

I'm starting to wonder if one of Shark's minion's, in collaboration with Alan James, placed that bolt during 'a quiet week for news'.

[petejh]

What this load of bollocks does raise is the incompatibility of british trad idealism with the need (in places) for fixed anchors. God I'm so glad I live in Llandudno and don't have to agonise daily over whether to use the rabbit hole or the sapling to equalise the 35 year-old dangerously corroded knifeblade peg that acted as an unquestionably bomber anchor when its owner placed it but now the joke's on us idiots for attempting to eke out the last minutes of its finite lifespan so that we don't have to make hard choices about what to put in its place.
Should still chop it mind.

[dave]

Nah... As an outsider, very much pro-Sport. I cannot see any justification to bolt something which can be easily protected, where gear can be easily recovered by a short Abseil, on the basis that there used to be a peg/stake of dubious reliability. Why were people using a dodgy stake anyway, if abing to recover gear was straightforward? A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct?
 Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?

It's not quite as simple as that.

• The top of the crag is pretty chossy so abbing into the cave invariably involves knocking stuff down onto the ground below (and anyone down there)

This is a much overstated "fact". I saw someone abb off the top recently and they didn't knock anything down.