[Johnny Brown]

Reported on UKC:  http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=588773

A new lower-off bolt has been placed in Keyhole cave, described as 'a massive glue in 'U' bolt'.

This was debated at the Peak BMC meet almost 4 years ago today, following the demise of the rusty spike, with no supporters, and even Mick Ryan described it thus:

Fixed Belays at Millstone was a non-issue. Made up. Hot air, an attention seeking ploy

.

The only modern bolt on Eastern grit to my knowledge. Thoughts?

[nai]

That's been there since at least March, my first visit to the cave and I thought it looked a whole lot better than described in the guides.

Not sure it should be left in just so folk can do the bottom pitches of those routes then ab off.

[shark]

Thoughts?

A bold act of common sense

Flush out the perp and burn them

[dave]

If it stays in, presumably justified by convenience and "safety", then you could probably justify a bolt lower off on just about any millstone route with a sandy biscuit top. Hence it has to go. If people want convenience routes we got plenty elsewhere. And the fact it's a quarry not natural grit should have no bearing on it either. As far as climbers are concerned its grit, its the found environment. You wouldn't stick a bolt on great slab.

Folk wanting to ab out the cave can set up a hanging rope from above.

[Johnny Brown]

Agree entirely with Dave. I daresay we'll get more posts on the Hubble kneepad thread though. Sad times.

[abarro81]

What Dave said. Not that I go trad climbing nowadays.

[Jaspersharpe]

What Barrows said.

[Bonjoy]

What Dave said. You'd have thought said lone wolf would have at least done some sort of like for like e.g. a rust spike stuck in the old hole. It's grit.

[Boredboy]

A backwards step that's for sure, a bit like when Wall Street crash was 're-pegged'

[Tommy]

It's got to go. The question is, what's the best way?

[Oldmanmatt]

Ok.
Don't shoot me, I'm only asking and I'm not offering any opinion on the subject.

Grit trad is something decades in my past and so far away, I'd rather spend the time/money going to Font.

Never climbed at this crag either.

Could somebody layout the argument against? Or for (if anyone could be that brave)?

I really don't like plowing though the shit on the other channel. It's usually a bit like reading a slightly more polarised version of a transcript of a conversation between Hitler and Trotsky and less informative.

[Stu Littlefair]

See what Dave wrote. This bolt is used so people can climb the bottom half of some routes. The bottom halves are solid and well protected. The top halves, less so.

The arguments in favour of the bolt could be used to justify stopping short of the top on any Millstone route. It's got to go.

[Fiend]

Agree entirely with Dave. I daresay we'll get more posts on the Hubble kneepad thread though. Sad times.

Well, given that Dave answered it so accurately and succintly, we don't need many more posts except 

Although a witchhunt would be nice too.

[danm]

Conflicted punter alert 

Personally I don't have an issue with bolt belays and lower offs in quarries, after all this isn't a natural outcrop but a former construction site that has been re-purposed for leisure activities. If there are a couple of HVS pitches to go at now as a result, great thank you very much. As long as bolts don't start appearing as protection on pitches, I'm happy.

BUT

No matter what I think, the agreed consensus was to leave the cave without a new fixed belay. If we start implying that unilateral action is acceptable, what next?

Best option for removal is probably angle grinder and then dab some resin on top mixed with some sand. I may cry a little though.

These are my own views and absolutely jack shit to do with my work at the BMC.

[dave]

As I understand it SOME glue-ins can be removed if you can heat the metal to about 100degrees and then crowbar it out. Obviously this could take a while if its a thick bolt in really deep. Plus the rock it's in will act as a heatsink. But if you could pull it and cement the hole then that's probably the ideal solution.

With a bit of luck Gary will have placed it and it'll just lift straight out anyway. (joke).

[Johnny Brown]

Could somebody layout the argument against? Or for

If you've not been, there is a big wall maybe 20 m high with a big sandy cave at half height. There are five or six routes to the cave, two of which are HVS cracks, and one of which, Coventry Street is a 3* E5 often done to the cave as 2* E4. Historically there were a couple of metal stakes in the cave, quarrying relics. One went in the eighties, the other a couple of years back (removed by the man who proposed a bolt, no less, see here: http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?item=586 ).

So it used to be easy to rig an ab from the cave, albeit on a dodgy old stake. Now it isn't, and apparently it's too much trouble for HVS climbers to pre-rig an ab rope, they need a lower-off.

This was debated at length following the above linked article, very little in favour except the proposer. Now it's in lots of folk are saying they are pleased. One admits not being comfortable enough to say so before. Presumably others feel the same.

[fatdoc]

Used to be bloody good fun just doin the lower sections of the routes.

Just saying..

I hear you JB, the knee pad affair, aka Hubblegate is diverting from a more fundamental rock changing concern.

And no, it wasn't me!

[Johnny Brown]

You still can - I did recently. You just need a bit more craft to get off, or to pre-place a rope as a belay, or to ab for your gear at the end. Coventry street regularly sports a 'trad' lower off of two wires equalised with tat.

[tommytwotone]

Could somebody layout the argument against? Or for (if anyone could be that brave)?

Argument for (assuming I understand correctly) is basically that, like a fair bit of Millstone, the top pitches above the cave are pretty chossy / pancake-y / terrifying right at the top.

I have a vague memory of reading a story of someone tottering back over the edge having all but topped out (think it's in the Burbage, Millstone And Beyond guide, I could be wrong). I also once scrabbled over to top into the rotting corpse of a dead sheep but that's another, more unpleasant story altogether.

Combine the above with questionable reliability of the old ex-mining gear metalwork that has now gone, sprinkle in peoples' laziness / unwillingness to faff about with rigging a static line from the top to abseil off and I think that's probably about it.

For the record I think it's totally unjustified as it's a bolt on grit. Chop it.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ok, grit punter that I am...

It's fairly fragile as I recall?

Nah... As an outsider, very much pro-Sport. I cannot see any justification to bolt something which can be easily protected, where gear can be easily recovered by a short Abseil, on the basis that there used to be a peg/stake of dubious reliability. Why were people using a dodgy stake anyway, if abing to recover gear was straightforward? A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct?
 Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?

[petejh]

Just a thought but isn't the real cause of the problem the guidebook descriptions? Describing 'easier' routes finishing at the cave is guaranteed to lead to HVS climbers, umm... finishing at the cave..., and bring with it all the inevitable 'need a proper ab point' attention from that crowd. The solution is to describe all of the routes on keyhole cave wall as E3-5 finishing out of the cave to the top, and mention in passing that it's possible to do the first pitches only, at hvs/whatever, if you construct a pre-rigged ab point from above. The horse leads the cart. Elitist?

[slackline]

The solution is to describe all of the routes on keyhole cave wall as E5 finishing out of the cave to the top....

There isPiccadilly Circus (** E2 5c) on the far left of the cave.

A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct?
 Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?

The fence of which you would set-up an abseil means you need more than half a rope length though as its a fair bit back from the edge.

[petejh]

Sorry yes just edited before I saw your reply.

[galpinos]

Nah... As an outsider, very much pro-Sport. I cannot see any justification to bolt something which can be easily protected, where gear can be easily recovered by a short Abseil, on the basis that there used to be a peg/stake of dubious reliability. Why were people using a dodgy stake anyway, if abing to recover gear was straightforward? A 20m buttress? Less than half a rope? And I see from Rockfax that it's not overhanging above, correct?
 Is it possible to ab in an stand safely in the cave (attached to ab rope, not off belay)?

It's not quite as simple as that.

• The cave is pretty sandy and setting up a decent belay in there to abb off takes some effort
• The top of the crag is pretty chossy so abbing into the cave invariably involves knocking stuff down onto the ground below (and anyone down there)
• The guidebook implies it's easy to abb down from the cave

[kelvin]

Elitist?

Not at all. Having only been there once and leading grades that would only get me to the cave, I did have a look at this wall but getting to the cave and stopping seemed a bit of a cop out to me. I like to get to the top to be honest and if I'm gonna climb on that wall, then it's up to me to get better.

I know the lad who started the thread on the other side, he loves his trad and I'm surprised he likes the bolt. Me? Get rid.