[danm]

Hi All,

Based on replies, the workshop is set for Wednesday 16th July at Horseshoe. See you all there from 6pm onwards.

It may be worth doing a bit of lift sharing to stop filling the parking spots/save money/be green. I can give one spot in my van from Sheffield if needed, pm me if interested.

Sam, to save messing about, just bring the BMC drill with you, just make sure both batteries are fully charged, cheers.

[danm]

Friendly reminder that this is happening in a weeks time. See you there.

[highrepute]

Is it too late to express an interest in attending this Dan?

[danm]

Please feel free to turn up - it will be pretty informal. Grimer is coming to provide comedy value (although I think it's the free pint afterwards that he's really after)

[SamT]

I'll try and be there Dan. If not, I'll get the drill to you before then.

[shark]

I'll bring my drill and any PBF gear I have.

Kristian howaboutyou draw up a rota for (say) for each person that goes (but doesn't have a drill) to have the drill for (say) 3 weeks with a list of routes to rebolt before passing on to the next person

[kc]

This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.

Anyway an update on the list. Anyone wish to add?

Raven tor
Remove and relocate a shockingly badly placed bolt on a route right of indecent.
There is a dodgy bolt or two around Mecca extension/Kaaba junction.
Top section of Tin of + move lower off above break.
Obscene\ toilet lower off needs replacing.
The replacement of all the bolts and lower off on Call of Nature is not of immediate concern but they are made of substandard materials so will need doing sooner or later.
The only worthwhile route right of here to do is Mortal Combat.
There are a few old bolts/studs to remove on Hot Flushing’s and Hooligan.

Rubicon
There is a lot of tiding up to do here and there is a case for placing/replacing discreet lower offs on some of the trad routes. Apparently they are quite good and having top roped them all I would consider the damage caused by cleaning the top outs unjustifiable.  Gardening the top outs would need to be done regularly with the added danger of falling debris onto a busy footpath.
New discreet Belay points for the following routes are worth considering.
Jezebel, jaws, Piranha, White Bait, Millers Tail
The collection of routes that finish up Dragon Flight currently rely on a single bolt.
As for sport routes there is Too Old/Bold, Tribes, Last but not least, Bastard and the rubbish to the right of Rubicon roof.

Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.

Crunch Buttress
Mission impossible
Karma Killer belay
Agent Provocateur
Perfecto
Trainer Tamer

WCJ Cornice
The dole
Ape index
Yorkshire 8b mix of rubbish
The weakling (some)
Brachiation Dance
Free Monster (better lower off arrangement)
Superfly
Eclipsed
Glue machine
Sirius
Atilla the Hun

Dale cornice

There are 7 routes to do left of Taylor Made namely the power trip routes, but rarely come into condition.
Nemesis couple of bolts
Malcolm X
A few on roof warrior and cry of despair
Poppy Fields lose bolt in odd position
Armistice Day bolts all in wrong place
Big zipper and bored bolts are a bit random and as it is so popular could really do with the full resin treatment. Clarion too?
42
Butterflies
Think that’s it here?? Too Pumpy For Grumpy has got 2 lumps of rust. Not sure which way to make it finish to avoid the blocky finish? Greendale has an unsatisfactory lower off position.

Nook

All sorts?? Life in the old log
Bit of Nookey
Storm
and old bolt removal from Lockless & Theora.

Nettle Buttress

Not too familiar with this but Stung is particully bad.

Two-Tier Buttress

Dodgy lower off on reboot
Stogumber Club
Why Me
Orange Sunshine
Start of Minos and bolt out left on Aberration
Buster
Lightweight
7 pounds

Long Wall

First bolt on Kiss hardy now out of reach. The joint lower offs above this are quite poor
Moldwarp wall
Balancing act/trick show have lost their belay.
Breathless.

Embankment

Don't know but there will be something here.
Stone The Loach and Arachonothera amongst others

Beginner’s wall
Let’s get Physical and a load of old bolts to chop. Lets Get Fossilized is done but not the direct

[Paul B]

Barbarosity at WCJ Cornice has a single bolt/biner lower-off. It's a bad combination as the biner traps your rope against the rock and with all of the drag it's a royal PITA. I'm pretty sure a small chain affair would hang free but maybe it's a bit visible when the trees aren't there?

[highrepute]

Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.

Does this mean you/someone has bolted these or discovered that they are/aren't possible?

[shark]

This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.

Rebolting work isn't the best way to spend a day/evening but arranging to pick up the gear and return it each time makes it more onerous. People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that. Your commitment to the cause is commendable but this is potentially a way that you can spread the load with the less hardcore and committed (like me).   

[kc]

Moat Buttress
Two Sheep to Leicester and Searching For the Yeti. That is if the latter is still possible.

Does this mean you/someone has bolted these or discovered that they are/aren't possible?

I top-roped Yeti recently and can confirm that it still works as a route despite hold loss.  Two very bouldery sections with a good rest in the middle. A lot of effort for a 7b+

[kc]

This is assuming anything will get done. I will hold my breath on that one. Been there before.
I would rather the kit is brought back to base camp after each excursion unless someone is really going for it.

Rebolting work isn't the best way to spend a day/evening but arranging to pick up the gear and return it each time makes it more onerous. People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that. Your commitment to the cause is commendable but this is potentially a way that you can spread the load with the less hardcore and committed (like me).

Whatever!
My main concern is the drill. These things seem to have a tendency to break when out of my sight. It's never been the same since the last workshop. An expensive bit of kit that could wipe out the entire PBF balance in an instant.
I would suggest 18mm drill bits (17mm better but harder to source) for setting the final inch of PB bolts as it's doing the drill no good opening the end out. You will know what I mean when you have a go.

[SamT]

Kris - When you say the "the drill" I assume its a different one to the BMC one, which I have in my possession and its in mint condition.

DCA use the hilti tri jet drill bits - http://cdn.toolstation.com/images/130125-UK/images/library/stock/webbig/46800.jpg

expensive but by god do they mince into the limestone.  Its like drilling cheese, which of course saves on battery power and general wear and tear on the drill.

I still find it hard to believe that the BMC doesn't have a central fund for stuff like this and that it remains the remit of a dedicated few to dip their hands into their pockets and part with their hard earned for the benefit of the greater climing community.  I'm mean forgive my french, but feck me, how much BMC cash is being pushed towards the idealogical purchase of Blencathra.
[/rant]

sorry - off topic.

I might try and do the belays of Tribe/TOTBB/Caviar this weekend, or monday night.  Then I can give the drill back feeling like I've finished the job.

[kc]

It's the PBF drill. Power and drill bits are not the issue here with regard to PB bolts.

 As you know they start to flare an inch before the eye and no two bolts are the same. It takes time and trigger control to ream out the last inch to get the thing to seat well. It is this jiggling that seems to strain the controls and chuck. According to PB web site the flare helps hold the bolt in on steep rock after a firm whack home. In reality most placements aren't that steep and its a pain getting the thing out for a final clean or more jiggling.

My main problem of course being a perfectionists, they tend look like ornaments set in place forever, even if the routes aren't.

[SamT]

Totally agree kris, they are a pain and I I think I suffer from that ailment a bit too.

The dca 'prescribed' method is to switch to an 8mm bit to cut a little channel vertically down from the main hole (and over into it a bit, for the flare and the back edge of the bolt to sit into.  This gives a considerable strength advantage if sideways or twisting loads are likely (much more likely in caving situations). However, this does seem to alleviate the issue with the flare.  I've found it nigh on impossible sometimes to 'whack' it home, especially when its got resin oozing out too.  I try to avoid reaming with the drill bits, i.e. using the sides of the drill bit, its def. bad for the chuck and bearings on the drill. instead I try to drill in at an angle at the edges of the hole vertically up and then vertically down to widen out the hole in a vertical direction.  It is faffy though.

[kc]

Yes and that's how I finish it off myself. Works well with the "Fixe" as it is only the eye that needs seating, especially given the 2mm extra gap around the shaft. 
The "BP" tends to get stuck (depending on how tightly that bolt has been twisted) an inch back. By increasing the diameter of the first inch to 17/18mm all that is left to do is slot the eye.

I suspect there are some that just drill the whole thing at 18mm.
Not quite sure how that effects the untwisting camming action that is part of the design?

[petejh]

We use the bolt product (BP) bolts on NW lime - mostly the smaller 12mm (double 6mm twisted rod) design. Cue 'they're too small' from clueless resident bozo's / cue 'minimal visual impact, marine grade stainless, 37Kn(!) and 12 mm hole versus 16mm hole' from me.
The same issue with tight fit exists when placing the 12mm twisted leg as the 16mm - I've always found this is easily overcome with a few solid hits with a hammer; then they always sit flush. The trouble with doing that is people who are lazy/don't give a fuck about their own work/don't know just hit the bolts with the steel head of a hammer and 6 months later in our salty environment you have a bolt with a rust spot on its eye caused by the reaction of the dissimilar mild steel from the hammer head becoming embedded in the stainless steel of the bolt's eye during twatting.

All that's needed for a proper job is to twat the bolts flush with the hammer while covering the eye of the bolts with a little bit of wood or thick rag to prevent mixing the two steels. Most bolts can be hit flush just using the plastic/rubber handle of a hammer, a few stubborn ones require the full treatment with the steel hammer head and bit of protective wood/thick rag.

Larger holes/reaming out, I never ream a slot for the eye to sit in - see here from the BP webpage:
Recessing Bolt Heads
'Some companies tell you to do this as well as bolting "experts" however it takes time, wears the drill bit and may weaken the placement in some kinds of rock. With a well designed bolt there are no advantages but one big disadvantage- recessing the head will prevent it being cut off at a later date and removal with a core drill'. 

except when I don't have the correct size drill bit for placing DMM eco's (require an 18mm bit, recently lost mine and only have a 17mm).

I never drill a larger hole either, I drill a 12mm hole for the little ones and 16mm for the larger ones:
Again from BP's webpage:
Glue Line-or better described by some authorities as Critical Glue Mass, is often overlooked but is very important (I have tried to simplify this to make it easier to understand).

Epoxies and esters are exothermic, that is they require heat to cure and therefore they rely on the fact that they can raise their temperature (normally to ca 65°c) faster than this heat is conducted away by their surroundings. Placing a relatively large metal bar in the glue is obviously not the ideal situation as it will conduct the heat away and prevent full cure, for this reason most manufacturers call for a hole 2mm larger than the object to allow a thick enough glue line or glue mass and therefore an adequate heat build up and cure. Interestingly this effect was also discovered in the early 80´s in the timber industy and they also recommend a 1mm glue line when embedding metel fasteners.

A problem is then to ensure the glued object is in the centre of the hole, commercially this is done by various methods, the most obvious is the perforated plastic sleeve often supplied with chemical fasteners for hollow blocks but impractical for our purposes. Another way is to supply the glue in a glass cartridge which is designed to break up and act as a spacer/filler, a third way is to give the bolt a shape in which parts of the bolt are large enough to centralise while the rest is left for the glue, typically this is the approach used by Bühler bolts and by the newest Hilti chemical anchors. The illustration of the Petzl bolt above shows this clearly, the neck of the shaft is larger than the rest, they are also supplied with glass ampoules.

We have sufficient glue mass in the twist of the legs on our bolts and do not require a smaller hole to be drilled.

I take it that Jim wrote a typo in that final sentence and he means 'larger hole', not 'smaller'.

[Bonjoy]

This reminds me - The bolts on Theoria are stainless but have non stainless washers which are corroding badly already. The washers need ideally replacing with stainless or just removing. The belay also needs something to lower off (the chain is small and the krab looks dodgy and is on the bad bolt end of the chain).

[Wil]

People are willing in a general sense and having some structure /organisation in the form of a rota could harness that.

I would definitely benefit from this, if only because being held to account for specific routes in a specific timeframe will be more likely to make me get off my arse and do it. It would be good at least to agree among the participants next week which routes we intend to sort out.

[kc]

Well there are two camps with regard to recessing the bolt heads then. I have read Jim's web site many a time but there are pros to recessing as well.
Directional pulls as Sam has already said and aesthetics. A well seated bolt blends in to the rock far better, which is very important here in the peak.
 Bolt removal with a core drill is a fantasy that may work on a test bed but not in the real world swinging around on a rope.
Will life or climbing as we know it still exist by the time a well placed PB bolt expires? Except for punters misusing lower offs etc!

[petejh]

Ha yeah I agree about the lifespan.. Minimal visual - the 12mm's are almost invisible    (I know you've pull-tested and don't like them cos they bend).

[kc]

I think there great. Used one at the Tor where the air gets thin. I would however reserve them for compact rock and off crux sections on popular routes.
In the Peak all two foot of the choss is a crux move!

[Johnny Brown]

Went trad climbing at Stoney yesterday, rather disappointed with the unnecessary proliferation of bolts since the last time I did these routes.

The tat on the trees above Dead Banana/ Bitterfingers has been replaced with a triple 'P' bolt lower-off. Total overkill in my opinion and appears to have been placed by someone inexperienced - bolts sticking miles out, and why the third bolt? Why any bolts in fact? What's wrong with tat on the trees?

The handline to approach the left routes on Garage buttress is rigged on new bolts which replace the old thread belay below Helicon, Gerremdown etc. This is rigged on alloy caving hangers with steel bolts, and judging by the dust underneath quite freshly installed. Given that these hangers are both weaker (15kN vs 25kN), more expensive (£3.50 vs £2) and shorter lived, I can only assume they were chosen to allow the bolter to use 8mm bolts instead of 10 or 12mm. Which presumably are cheaper and saved his drill bit. The handline is then badly rigged only illustrating the rigger doesn't understand what Bunny knots are for. I would have sorted this but the maillons needed a spanner. All quite irritating given there is a perfectly adequate thread two feet away and good natural gear placements.

Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover. If folk insist on drilling the crap out of crags that did perfectly well without bolts for fifty (million) years at least do a decent job.

[shark]

Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover.

Yep

Northerners can't climb ** E5 6a
This climb is in 2 logbooks, and on no wishlists.
Has been retrobolted presumably by mistake and even had a new name proposed. Grade is about 7a. Pumped out trying to clip the last bolt which seems in the totally wrong place. Next go I just missed it out completely - its harder to clip than to just do the moves. Looks like it might have been quite pokey as a trad route

This route is on a clean bit of rock BTW and looked like it could be climbed without cleaning when I walked under it last year. The bolting of routes further right made total sense but not this. Its a Paul Mitchell route. He is going to go apeshit.

[Johnny Brown]

I had a walk under Stoney West a few weeks back - having assumed due to the in situ cars in the layby these last two years that it had been retro-bolted. Surprised in fact that there were a few trad routes left. I wouldn't say I was overjoyed but it was at least a genuinely neglected crag.

Having done some research the Froth/ Bitterfingers lower off was placed by Ian Carr. Apparently the general subject was debated at an area meet in Glossop (raised by Ian, I didn't attend), but there is no record in the minutes of anything specific such as a lower off here, just the normal 'like-for-like' fluff lest an unspecified fantasy E2 become E5 when the 'crucial' pegs go. In fact the only specific case mentioned is Kellogg, which having done five times in the last few years I can assure folk does not 'rely on pegs' nor does it need them replacing with bolts. I like Ian but I don't believe Stoney in the main needs saving from unpopularity, let alone in this manner.

In response to your comment on the other thread, the 'backward' Peak area comment came from Koscis, in reference to Wilton and other Lancs quarries where selected retro-ing and lower-offs had been mandated at a BMC area meet... though that has since blown up in their face with Phil Kelly resigning his membership of the BMC etc, and I believe many of the bolts are now being chopped.

I'm sure Paul will go apeshit, he has every right....