[Fiend]

Exactly. The retort from these kind of muddle-headed people would be that abattoirs kill humanely. Though what they really mean is "I don't give a shit about farm animals".

That is complete and utter bullshit and you know it. It's almost trivial to point it out but there are clearly moral differences between killing for food and letting animals die for no reason, between being complicit in a meat industry that at least should have some standards and watchdogs for animal welfare and having animals in your trust and letting them die, and between killing livestock raised to be eaten and letting animals die in the context of them having owners who love them and are devoted to them.

N.B. This is not a justification of omnivorism (my canine teeth do that eloquently enough) nor of the meat industry which no doubt has many flaws in animal welfare, just pointing out the wrong comparison.

[shark]

I am no expert obviously, but my sense is that the law in the UK is far more sensible on this kind of stuff. Do you really think in a similar case in UK - dogs asphyxiating from being left too long in hot car - there would really be jail time?

I can't find an example but I think this guy came close

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048380/Sergeant-Ian-Craven-left-police-dogs-die-hot-car-spared-jail.html

[Fiend]

Except dogs, as well as being property, are also sentient creatures. If want to I can pile my all property up in a big heap and set fire to it., doesn't mean I can add my cats to the top of the bonfire.

Good point.

I think anyone who thinks this is an overly-harsh sentence for animal abuse is grossly underestimating how devoted pets and owners can be to each other (I've witnessed this in numerous friends and family), and therefore the hurt and pain caused to the owners, IN ADDITION to the suffering of the animals. Even if you callously take the animal suffering out of the equation, the hurt caused to 6 owners is significant in itself. Bringing in the property point - if someone takes away property from someone else, they can rightly expect punishment for depriving that person of their property. In this case, this woman has deprived 6 people of their "property" AND caused them a lot of grief in the progress (AND the suffering), so she can rightly expect punishment.


Edit: before anyone who gets the wrong idea about dog behaviour, I obviously agree with condemning poor ownership, and I also agree that retaliation is justifiable if an animal attacks someone - I'm not sure that lethal retaliation would be justifiable for a bite (but also I don't think it would automatically deserve a harsh sentence), but equally if the only way to STOP the attack was to kill the animal in the process then sobeit.

[tomtom]

Wasn't there the guy who was sent down for grilling someone's goldfish at a house party?

[Muenchener]

I'm somewhat with Fiend with regard to blatant and gratuitous cruelty to animals being deserving of some punishment (but am not vegetarian, but do make at least some effort to avoid buying factory farmed meat)

But regard to defending oneself - or even more so children - against attacks by uncontrolled dangerous animals, I would have no qualms at all about using any degree of force/violence/weaponry I had available. Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight for attacking livestock and I've not met many people who have a problem with that; do sheep deserve more protection than children?

[andy popp]

I think several of you are missing the point tomtom alluded to regarding non-vegetarianism, and also muddling up your personal biases with the pragmatic requirements of human life. The logical end of the road that begins with excessive sentimentality toward canines are those disgusting attacks on scientists carrying out animal experiments that flare up every few years.

To simply point that dogs, as a class of property, are qualitatively different from say books, televisions or cars is not in anyway to try and accord them 'near human' legal status, nor can I see how it possibly violates the 'pragmatic requirements of human life'. Believing that sentient animals deserve some degree of protection from arbitrary cruelty is not 'excessive sentimentality.'

As to the non-vegetarianism issue, personally, I haven't eaten meat for thirty years.

[webbo]

I haven' t read all the pages but if this is about bringing puppies to the crag I'm up for that. What more could one ask for rock and puppies, well maybe kittens.

[Boredboy]

So are dogs 'allowed' at the crag or what?

[Fiend]

But regard to defending oneself - or even more so children - against attacks by uncontrolled dangerous animals, I would have no qualms at all about using any degree of force/violence/weaponry I had available. Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight for attacking livestock and I've not met many people who have a problem with that; do sheep deserve more protection than children?

This is perhaps a more pertinent issue, not least because it relates to both the dogs' behaviour / at the crag issue AND habrich's concerns, without going off on any dietary tangents.

As I said before I agree with that about defense. About retaliation (in the heat of the moment, rather than calculated revenge), I'm not sure about what level is morally justified....but I AM sure that even the most violent retaliation against a dog would be vastly more justifiable - and thus vastly less punishable, if at all - than leaving 6 innocent dogs to die in a car.


P.S. I also wrote a reply about the "The logical end of the road that begins with excessive sentimentality toward canines are those disgusting attacks on scientists carrying out animal experiments that flare up every few years." tangent and UKB crashed and swallowed it, but since that sentence is clearly fallacious bollox I'm not even re-writing it fully - world of difference between pointless cruelty/neglect and experiments that may be incidentally cruel and have some clear purpose / benefit to humanity enough said.

[tomtom]

I haven' t read all the pages but if this is about bringing puppies to the crag I'm up for that. What more could one ask for rock and puppies, well maybe kittens.

You're always welcome to get your puppies out at the crag Webbo.

[cheque]

Meanwhile in Yosemite...

[Jaspersharpe]

#cock

[Will Hunt]

Dog are, by and large, pains in the arse. The smaller they are the more annoying they get. Some bigger dogs are OK - collies for instance.

They're just such smug individuals. Walking round with self-satisfied faces - they just know that they are "it". Particularly small, rat-type dogs.

People treat them like family members, and yet if you had a member of the family whose social skills were so abyssmal they wouldn't leave the house without careful supervision, let alone being let off the lead to run around as they pleased.

And so demanding!

If dogs were humans, they wouldn't have any mates.

If dogs could choose their own haircut they would all get topknots.

They eat their own shit ffs.

[SA Chris]

I like dogs, but not sure I could a whole one.

[tomtom]

I like dogs, but not sure I could a whole one.

Do they make you feel a but rough?

[hstmoore]

Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight

Are they still allowed to do it if they have beta?

[Jaspersharpe]

habrich whatever you do, do not read Mike Owen's blog. Your head will explode.

[JamieG]

There is a lot of negativity about dogs going on. 

I have two. I take them to the crag, but generally try keep them away from busy areas. I pick up their poop. People come over, stroke them and give them treats. I'm definitely biased but I think they make my life (and others) better. 

[gme]

Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.

However i have often met people who should have been left in a hot car with the windows tightly closed.

I dont think my dogs have ever annoyed anyone, only rabbits.

[tomtom]

There is a lot of negativity about dogs going on. 

Yeah - its kind of gone that way which is a shame...

Despite having had bad moments with dogs - I'm generally OK with them and most are great.. EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old

Mostly, its non climbers dogs that are the pain in the arse (or habitual food thieves/bouldering mat copulaters to be more accurate) - and certain crags (Rubicon springs to mind) where there are more walkers with dogs etc.. are worse for this.

[tomtom]

Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.

Sorry - but someone elses dog pinching my grub would (and has) very much annoy me...

I don't like being jumped up at by dogs either...

[Will Hunt]

EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old

It's always nice to find yourself in like-minded company 

[Sloper]

Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.

However i have often met people who should have been left in a hot car with the windows tightly closed.

I dont think my dogs have ever annoyed anyone, only rabbits.

None so blind that will not see.

I've lsot track of the number of times I've had trouble with dogs at crags, I can recall the day when some medical students from Sheffield were bouldering at the Burbage South bolders and had their fucking great Doberman running about (the kids who were out with us were all about 1 year old at the time) including over the picnic blanket and their twattishness wasn't limited to that, they'd stuffed a bag of shit in a crack.

[rich d]

I've lsot track of the number of times I've had trouble with dogs at crags,

So dogs are a good judge of character then. 

[nai]

EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old

S/He's doing his best to be endearing and make friends so he can score a lift home when he gets left behind.