[RossH]

Why is it a case of 'more is not always better' with regard to developing anaerobic capacity if aerobic capacity is poor? I don't really understand why having an improved anaerobic capacity will impact negatively on route climbing performance

[Stu Littlefair]

This is massively simplified, but...

Your anaerobic energy system produces lactic acid, which is believed to be a major cause of muscle fatigue. If you improve your anaerobic capacity, you will produce more lactic acid. All other things being equal this will lead to an improved ability to do hard 15-20 move sequences, but you will die from the pump beyond this.

The aerobic energy system is responsible for clearing the lactic acid - hence if you want to perform well on routes >15 moves, you will need to improve your aerobic fitness in line with your improvements in anaerobic fitness.

[Stu Littlefair]

TMR:

Yup you have a point there. There's bits and pieces out there that are for and against extremely low intensity for aerobic capacity training. From my reading and understanding of the subject I've decided to drop extremely low intensity climbing (like the ARC stuff that people do) in favour on mid-low + higher intensity. If I look at most of my clients that follow this advice then I have no reason to think this is affecting them adversely when I look at their performance. On the other hand, someone like Alex does lots of it and he suffers no adverse affects, so take from that what you will!

It might help explain why Alex is so weak...

[RossH]

Thanks Stu, I see what Alex is getting at now. Not sure I agree with the theory though - the idea that lactate is a cause of muscle fatigue is one of the classic myths of exercise science, hence to my mind it doesn't make sense to claim that you need to develop aerobic capacity to 'keep up' with your new improved rate of lactate development.

[Fultonius]

This is massively simplified, but...

Your anaerobic energy system produces lactic acid, which is believed to be a major cause of muscle fatigue. If you improve your anaerobic capacity, you will produce more lactic acid. All other things being equal this will lead to an improved ability to do hard 15-20 move sequences, but you will die from the pump beyond this.

The aerobic energy system is responsible for clearing the lactic acid - hence if you want to perform well on routes >15 moves, you will need to improve your aerobic fitness in line with your improvements in anaerobic fitness.

As far as I'm aware, the "lactic acid" theory of muscle fatigue is no longer thought to be valid. Something to do with cell ion deplation. More like a batteyr running out of electrical charge.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/305/5687/1144.full

[Fultonius]

As far as I'm aware, the "lactic acid" theory of muscle fatigue is no longer thought to be valid. Something to do with cell ion deplation. More like a batteyr running out of electrical charge.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/305/5687/1144.full

Hold that thought - just spotted that was referring to skeletal muscles - need to do more reading...

[RossH]

Eh? The forearm flexors are skeletal muscles...

[Fultonius]

Edited due to hastiness and being silly.

I got confused about what they meant by Skeletal muscle. And you sir, are correct. Apologies.

Anyway, the bottom line is: they no longer think that lactic acid is the cause of muscle fatigue. Whether or not this actually changes much in relation to "how to train for climbing" I don't know.

[webbo]

I'm sure I've read somewhere in the context off cycling that lactic starts to be come an energy source at some point. However I have a drink and may just have imagined this.

[webbo]

If you goggle lactic acid systems, straight away it talks of it producing energy?

[Tommy]

Lactate --> Cori Cycle --> ATP.

[Stu Littlefair]

Like I said - massively simplified, and out of date, but it's an easy way of explaining why people think that enhanced an-cap can be detrimental to fitness without getting bogged down in exercise physiology.

If people are interested in massively nerding out, the anaerobic system produces lactic acid, but this quickly converts to lactate in the blood, and H+ ions (acid) in the muscle. As Tommy says, lactate is used by the aerobic system for energy. It's the acid in the muscles that was thought to be responsible for fatigue.

As suggested by the links in the thread, this has been challenged recently, mostly by Westerblad and colleagues, who did studies on in vitro muscle fibres from mice and rats, and found acidosis was not linked to fatigue. Cue many other theories, involving ionic imbalances (Calcium, Chloride, Potassium etc) or creatine phosphate.

HOWEVER, a big limitation of all of these studies is that they are done at room temperature on isolated muscle fibres or fibre bundles, and they were done on muscles under no load. A study by Knuth et al (2006) tried to address this by studying muscle fibres at a range of temperatures, testing both fast and slow twitch muscles under load. They found that acid buildup DID cause fatigue.

There's even research from a team at stanford (Grahn & Heller) suggesting all the above is wrong, and that it's the effect of temperature on enzymes that is responsible, although the fact that no-one is citing them suggests this may not be well though of.

Finally, all of the studies looking at in vitro muscles ignore the contribution of the brain to fatigue. Noakes (2000) reckon that muscle fatigue is the result of the central nervous system, which may well be triggered by low pH in the muscles.

Basically who knows what causes fatigue? There's an excellent discussion paper here for those with more interest - http://www.rowperfect.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Does-lactic-acid-cause-fatigue.pdf.

[Stu Littlefair]

As to where that leaves the advice regarding ancap/aerocap balance I'd say it was still reasonable.

1) Acidosis is still not ruled out as a contributing factor to fatigue, especially in real athletes, as opposed to slabs of rat muscle

2) There's overwhelming evidence that lactate buildup is correlated with fatigue. The link may or may not be causal, but even if something else causes fatigue it's likely that it kicks in around the point where the anaerobic system dominates the aerobic system. Ergo, increasing the amount of effort we can put in before that happens seems like a good idea.

[Fultonius]

It's amazing how far most science has got and yet we still have large areas of debate such as what causes muscle fatigue...

Stu, I think your description of whether or not the aerobic system is overloaded leading you to go anaerobic is a good one - it works independent of the  actual mechanisms of the anaerobic system. It does make it slightly harder to explain why having an excellent anaerobic system and a poor aerobic system would lead to poor performance. Does experience back this up? (I'm not knowledgeable about those things)

I could believe that having better capillarisation could help to flush out the [insert theory of the day - lactic acid, ions etc.] and help you get back quicker to normal balance. This is pure conjecture though.

For you lot with large amounts of "training experience" who have trained some of these systems - has AeroCap actually shown noticeable gains in recovery? I'm guessing it has or you wouldn't all be doing it?


As an aside: -

I can't quite get my head around AeroPow - in my mind this is just the area where you're using a mixture of the Aerobic and Anaerobic systems.

[Fultonius]

Alex, Stu, Tommy et al.

Moving on past the discussion about lactic acid and what each system does, I was reading through Section 5, which splits each system up and proposes some training strategies for each one.

I have access to a beastmaker (in my flat) a bouldering wall with 2 traverse/circuit walls (variable angle), a bouldering cave and campus board. I would like to peak for May/June and the aim is alpine trad climbing at F7a/Fr7b. (this is my current o/s limit ON BOLTS, although, I may have dropped back a little)

Would I be best spending most of the winter doing "base" work of bouldering, campussing and beastmaker for strength; repeaters and long boulder problems for AnCap?

My AeroCap has always been fairly good, but I'll try and throw in a few easier sessions to keep it topped up.

I'm not very good at staying structured, planning training etc. I just prefer to "go climbing" but if I have a few general principles of what will be best to do then I should be able to steer my sessions in those directions.

[Tommy]

I think I can answer your question simply on the basis of what is written under your avatar: "Strong but crap"

Therefore, no do not do beastmaker, campus, strength work, ancap or anything like that. Spend all of your time focusing on training that is specific as possible to your objective. That is the most likely thing to cause you success.

It's certainly what I'd do if I were going for Alpine trad objectives... as I wouldn't be deadhanging, campusing or "12 move all-outing" any sequences! 

[Fultonius]

I think I can answer your question simply on the basis of what is written under your avatar: "Strong but crap"

Therefore, no do not do beastmaker, campus, strength work, ancap or anything like that. Spend all of your time focusing on training that is specific as possible to your objective. That is the most likely thing to cause you success.

It's certainly what I'd do if I were going for Alpine trad objectives... as I wouldn't be deadhanging, campusing or "12 move all-outing" any sequences! 

Ha, brilliant! Maybe I should change my avatar... I'm not that strong and not too crap. I would love to get out and just onsight stuff every day but there is no outdoor rock climbing until March/April (totally burried in snow/soaking wet) and I can't afford the entry fee to the lead wall in Les Houches, so bouldering and fingerboarding it is!

P.S. I rarely struggle with individual moves on the trad routes I'm aiming at. (Unless it's a slab/really techy route) so I know that I don't need to up my strength much but I do power out and get pumped on sustained sections. The general alpine fitness and multi-pitch mental stamina are not a worry. I find my multi-pitch stamina comes bakc quite quickly. I just want to be fucking strong and piss all the routes. 

[abarro81]

Gonna read through Stu's paper this evening, but I'm guessing I'll end up with a view similar to his point (2).

It does make it slightly harder to explain why having an excellent anaerobic system and a poor aerobic system would lead to poor performance. Does experience back this up? (I'm not knowledgeable about those things)

I went on a trip with someone who'd fucked up and worked their anaerobic system really hard but pretty much neglected their aerobic. By their previous standards, and how they've done since, they totally tanked and pumped off everything. n=1 study, but there you go.

has AeroCap actually shown noticeable gains in recovery?

Yes (for me and some others I know)

I would like to peak for May/June and the aim is alpine trad climbing at F7a/Fr7b. (this is my current o/s limit ON BOLTS, although, I may have dropped back a little)

I've never been Alpine tradding, but that seems like a pretty optimistic goal unless your sport grade is artificially low or you're a daemon on granite cracks (I'm presuming that's what the alpine trad stuff will be on?). Not many people onsight at their physical limit on trad, let alone at altitude in committing settings on multi-pitch. Like Tom, I'm not sure how much campusing will transfer to climbing E6 half way up a mountain having done a big walk-in, but since I don't do that shit I don't know what to advise. Anyway, I suspect energy systems will not be the limiting factor in that scenario, though I may be wrong. If you think that shit will be a limiting factor, then unless I've written the document badly it should tell you roughly what I'd do.

[Fultonius]

Cheers for the explanations - all seems to make sense in one way or another.

I would like to peak for May/June and the aim is alpine trad climbing at F7a/Fr7b. (this is my current o/s limit ON BOLTS, although, I may have dropped back a little)

I've never been Alpine tradding, but that seems like a pretty optimistic goal unless your sport grade is artificially low or you're a daemon on granite cracks (I'm presuming that's what the alpine trad stuff will be on?). Not many people onsight at their physical limit on trad, let alone at altitude in committing settings on multi-pitch. Like Tom, I'm not sure how much campusing will transfer to climbing E6 half way up a mountain having done a big walk-in, but since I don't do that shit I don't know what to advise. Anyway, I suspect energy systems will not be the limiting factor in that scenario, though I may be wrong. If you think that shit will be a limiting factor, then unless I've written the document badly it should tell you roughly what I'd do.

I've done Fr6c/+ in the mountains before - mountain grades are a little soft, and I don't have too much trouble pushing it on gear. I know that I'll need to work my way through a good few routes in the spring to build up to the harder ones.

I've not done a lot of sport onsighting - maybe 3 week-long foreign trips. In fact, I've not done a huge amount of sport redpointing, so my o/s grades are probably a bit low. I mainly climb trad.

Basically I'm asking the ludicrous question:

How, with access only to a boulder wall, campus board, fingerboard can I improve my mountain trad onsighting. Hahaha, funny, I know. But surely there's some aspects I can work on to give me a good base of power endurance to fight my way through the cruxes? Then use the spring to get the flow back and get my technique dialled in.


MODS: - feel free to split this out.

[JohnM]

I am going to Oliana this weekend to try Fish Eye, a long 8c with sustained sections between good shakes on jugs.  Hopefully, this will give me enough time to work out what training I need to do before spring to get it done.  I was wondering what key indicators I should look for that relate to the various energy systems so I can address which ones I need to work on.  E.g. I find the sustained sections between rests ok but then struggle to recover at the rests (I need more AeroCap?).  Or, I struggle and get pumped as soon as the climbing becomes sustained in nature but I get good recovery at the rests (I need more AnCap/AnPow?)  Or I struggle on everything (Do more of everything!). 

[Davo]

 I see through you Maskell. Your question about energy systems is simply a thinly veiled way of announcing that you are off to Oliana this weekend!

Up yours! I didn't want to go anyway and try that amazing route on that amazing crag...


Dave

[miso soup]

I think I'm more confused now than I was before reading all this.  Does this mean I should be doing AeroCap even if I don't really care about climbing anything longer than 20 moves?

[abarro81]

To be honest, if I weren't interested in anything over 20 moves I probably wouldn't have bothered reading a whole 12 page pdf entitled 'training for sport climbing'!  That's basically my way of saying I don't know. Bear in mind that, since I'm a sport climber and I don't coach people, I'm mainly interested in things I can take and apply to my climbing goals.


John - Yeah, the things you said are sensible. I remember when I went back to Santa Linya for Fabelita I knew that the key for me was going to be getting through the middle crux - if I could get through that a few times I'd have a good chance of doing it. Thus I knew I needed to be on it for a hard 14mv sequence when a bit drained but not super-pumped, so I worked my an cap and shorter an pow pretty hard in the build up, using rough replicas of that section. It worked really well. That would be my main advice - try to work out if there's a key for you to do it. If there's no particular key then you'll just have to do everything! In general I've found RPing needs more focus on the anaerobic and onsighting on the aerobic, as you might expect, but then Fish Eye is pretty damn long! There's potential for a whole document on self-assessment of energy systems, but I'm not the man to write it, and I suspect you'll not convince the man who is to do so, since he's got more perverted things to be doing...
P.S. I hope it rains every day.

[miso soup]

Sometimes I like to pretend I'm a sport climber by climbing 20 moves on a rope instead of over a pad...

[duncan]

Cheers for the explanations - all seems to make sense in one way or another.

I would like to peak for May/June and the aim is alpine trad climbing at F7a/Fr7b. (this is my current o/s limit ON BOLTS, although, I may have dropped back a little)

I've never been Alpine tradding, but that seems like a pretty optimistic goal unless your sport grade is artificially low or you're a daemon on granite cracks (I'm presuming that's what the alpine trad stuff will be on?). Not many people onsight at their physical limit on trad, let alone at altitude in committing settings on multi-pitch. Like Tom, I'm not sure how much campusing will transfer to climbing E6 half way up a mountain having done a big walk-in, but since I don't do that shit I don't know what to advise. Anyway, I suspect energy systems will not be the limiting factor in that scenario, though I may be wrong. If you think that shit will be a limiting factor, then unless I've written the document badly it should tell you roughly what I'd do.

I've done Fr6c/+ in the mountains before - mountain grades are a little soft, and I don't have too much trouble pushing it on gear. I know that I'll need to work my way through a good few routes in the spring to build up to the harder ones.

I've not done a lot of sport onsighting - maybe 3 week-long foreign trips. In fact, I've not done a huge amount of sport redpointing, so my o/s grades are probably a bit low. I mainly climb trad.

I was onsighting about the same level in the Dolomites last summer as I do at Portland, so this is not completely implausible. Softer grades, effect of a few days continuously climbing, a training programme aimed at peaking for that trip, a lot more 'up for it' on the Cima Grande than in some scruffy quarry?

Basically I'm asking the ludicrous question:

How, with access only to a boulder wall, campus board, fingerboard can I improve my mountain trad onsighting. Hahaha, funny, I know. But surely there's some aspects I can work on to give me a good base of power endurance to fight my way through the cruxes? Then use the spring to get the flow back and get my technique dialled in.

 I mostly trained on a  bouldering wall for my last few trips to bigger places. The really gentle ARC business didn't seem to do anything for me (though it's good for healing tweaks). I did quite a lot of Aerocap type stuff: circuits on easy-ish slightly overhanging ground for 10 mins on, 10 minutes off, for 4-6 sets, aiming to cultivate a moderate pump each time. It monopolises a section of wall so not one for Tuesdays at 7.30pm. A less antisocial version is doing problems 'on the minute': have a selection of problems 2-3 grades less than you can flash quite easily and go slowly up and down them at trad. climbing speed, aiming to spend about 45 seconds on and 15 second off to find the next one. Adjust the difficulty to maintain that moderate pump. Do that for 15-20 minutes, take a break, rinse and repeat 4-6 times.

For Aerobic Power, 4x4 boulder problems on the five minutes are excellent. Find 4 problems of varying styles at about your flash grade that you have wired but are all quite pumpy and basic. Climb all four one-after-another with no stopping, should take about 2.5 minutes. Rest for the remainder of the 5 minutes. Repeat three more times. The aim is to be well-pumped after the first '4' and absolutely bolloxed after the last '4'. This is a full value 20 minutes.

What to do for Anaerobic Capacity and Power should be evident from Barrows' original article but these will be less of a priority than Aerobic Capacity and Power I would have thought.