[SA Chris]

Any tips on how to get more (without resorting to drugs?)

Ever since putting up with 2 babies awake at all hours in the last couple of years my sleep patterns have been fucked (well they weren't great before!)

I usually go to bed about 11 and am awake by just after 5, and that's me for the night on a good night. If I got to bed earlier, I'm usually awake earlier and toss and turn, and if I'm lucky get an another half hour or so, annoyingly usually drifting off just as the human alarm clocks go off about 6:30.

I do all the stuff I'm supposed to; no telly an hour before going to sleep (although this is sometimes only 30-45 mins), no telly in room, room coool and dark, warm shower before bed, but cool down before getting into bed, then read until I doze off. I don't have anythign to drink before bed, or else I need to get up for a piss. I eat reasonably well, and get as much fresh air and exercise as I can (but nothing in 2 hours before bed), but anything longer than a 6 hour stretch seems to elude me. As soion as I'm awake my brain starts and won't shut down.

Advice? Or you reckon that's jjsut the way it is for me as I approach middle age? I'm usually OK with it, but sometimes just nod off early afternoon (or annoyingly on the bus home the other night, resulting in a long walk).

[Nibile]

If, as you say, when you first wake up then your brain starts working and you can't get back asleep, I think it's probably something mentally stressful rather than something physical that you can control with better lifestyle or habits.
What do you think?
Just an idea, but I know many like this.

[psychomansam]

Any tips on how to get more (without resorting to drugs?)

Ever since putting up with 2 babies awake at all hours in the last couple of years my sleep patterns have been fucked (well they weren't great before!)

I usually go to bed about 11 and am awake by just after 5, and that's me for the night on a good night. If I got to bed earlier, I'm usually awake earlier and toss and turn, and if I'm lucky get an another half hour or so, annoyingly usually drifting off just as the human alarm clocks go off about 6:30.

I do all the stuff I'm supposed to; no telly an hour before going to sleep (although this is sometimes only 30-45 mins), no telly in room, room coool and dark, warm shower before bed, but cool down before getting into bed, then read until I doze off. I don't have anythign to drink before bed, or else I need to get up for a piss. I eat reasonably well, and get as much fresh air and exercise as I can (but nothing in 2 hours before bed), but anything longer than a 6 hour stretch seems to elude me. As soion as I'm awake my brain starts and won't shut down.

Advice? Or you reckon that's jjsut the way it is for me as I approach middle age? I'm usually OK with it, but sometimes just nod off early afternoon (or annoyingly on the bus home the other night, resulting in a long walk).

You might find it's worth focussing even more on more natural light cycles. I actually use my laptop in bed all the time, but I have f.lux which adjusts the tone of the screen throughout the day, and I have a screen dimmer to drastically dim it at night.

Anyway, my point was, decreasing lighting for half an hour before bed can be helpful, as can using a light-alarm clock. You can buy all in one gadgets to do all this though they're not cheap if you want a decent one.
I also find bedtime sci-fi/fantasy reading helps me switch off, and do it in the dark with inverted colours on a tablet (dimmed white writing on a black background).

But I'm basically agreed with the above person. It seems like you're doing a lot of the right physical stuff, so perhaps you need to approach it more as a mental ailment. Meditation, stilling exercises etc have helped me with this (else I would have had a breakdown during my PGCE I think). These days the escapism of reading is normally enough - though I frequently dream of work and some meditation might well help.

If meditation is tough for you, perhaps start off by doing some yoga and focussing on precision, breathing and a stilling at the end of it.

I'm aware you may have tried all of this already

[andy popp]

Chris, that sounds incredibly similar to my sleep pattern - I'm pretty happy if its 5am when I wake. If I'm right about that, then the problem is not getting to sleep but staying asleep late enough in the morning, so doing everything right in the evening isn't the issue. Mine has undoubtedly got worse with middle age - as its meant to - but I've always been an early riser, even as a teenager. It also got much worse during an especially traumatic period in my life - it settled back down from that but probably never quite returned to 'normal'.

But most importantly, I've also come to realize that actually I'm fine on the sleep I get. And that means I stress about it much less.

[psychomansam]

Also, regarding drugs, you could always start off with a baseline of chamomile tea and then try some valerian / herbal nytol / nytol / scrip meds to kick-start you into a better cycle. But the further you go along that list, the more addictive it becomes.

I've had scrip meds for sleep before now, to deal with SSRI withdrawal. Considering the extenuating circumstances, I can't really comment on their negative effects but I was told that if you get hooked the withdrawal is similar to heroin.

They should prob ban chamomile infusions as a gateway drug. 

[SA Chris]

I think it's probably something mentally stressful rather than something physical that you can control with better lifestyle or habits.

I admit sometimes it's work related stress that keeps me awake, but often it's not mental  stress, just my brain going "hey I'm rested and up for whatever, how about this??" and I start thinking about good things; how to get a photo of a certain landscape in a certain way, how to do a boulder problem in a new way, what to do with part of the garden, a fun thing to do with the kids etc etc. And it won't shut down.

I expect Andy is right, and I've got the sleep I need, and should just start my day earlier. Trouble is I don't think I get enough sleep, and often towards the end of the day get lethargic, and struggle to make decisions, stay awake in meetings etc. Trouble is that afternoon powernaps are frowned upon here! Plus I wouldn't be popular if I got up and woke up my dearest or the kids knocking about the house in the early hours.

I make a point of using anything electronic before bed; laptop, tablet, phone or kindle, as I personally think any lit screen can affect sleep patterns, and tend to stick to printed stuff.

I've tried assorted hot drinks; camomille, horlicks etc before bed, but I still wake the same time or earlier needing to piss.  Herbal remedies seem to have little effect, and as I said I'm loathe to try anything stronger. As far as caffeine goes, i have a strong coffee about 9 am, and a cup of tea about 3pm, but nothing else.

[tomtom]

Chris, that sounds incredibly similar to my sleep pattern - I'm pretty happy if its 5am when I wake. If I'm right about that, then the problem is not getting to sleep but staying asleep late enough in the morning, so doing everything right in the evening isn't the issue. Mine has undoubtedly got worse with middle age - as its meant to - but I've always been an early riser, even as a teenager. It also got much worse during an especially traumatic period in my life - it settled back down from that but probably never quite returned to 'normal'.

But most importantly, I've also come to realize that actually I'm fine on the sleep I get. And that means I stress about it much less.

+1 (ish)

I rarely get more than 6 or 7 hours sleep, and I think I have "slept through" once or twice a year...

Having said that, no booze seems to help, and I play a patience game on my phone often before going to bed - it lulls my brain into repetitive boredom

MrsTT on the other hand will carry on doing her walrus imitations next to me for 12 hours on a stretch if not woken (lucky cow). I used to think there was something wrong with me - now I just get up and do something useful/interesting if I wake up early...

[Sasquatch]

I had to cut out bed reading altogether.  There are only two things I do in my bed.  Sleep and >>>.  I found that when I would read in bed, I had a difficult time with sleep.  When I read in bed, my brain seems to get wired to function in bed, and I would wake up out of dreams at random points throughout the night.  Since I quit reading in bed, I don't seem to have that same issue.  I also meditate for about 5 minutes when I get in bad, generally trying to consciously grasp and let go of my mental to do list, including work, family, and personal to-dos.  I find it both relaxes me as i have a handle on what needs to be done, so there's no nagging feeling of something to do, and also helps me start the next day in the right state of mind. 

That said, some people function exceptionally well off short sleep.  Can you powernap at lunch? 

The main factors were - I think - a general absence of anything to worry about (the stressmaker-in-chief - my wife - was the other side of a large ocean for two months) plus climbing most days, so usually pretty tired.

That sounds remarkable familiar.....

[psychomansam]

Wives and children are really not coming out well on this thread

*note to self*

[Sasquatch]

Wives and children are really not coming out well on this thread

*note to self*

Too true....  Still wouldn't trade em though

[tomtom]

I do circuits at Almscliff in my mind - that helps me doze off!

I start at the warm up slab, then three swings, up flying arete. Then wander up to Underhand, faff the first few moves, then get it third go... then wander up to DWR area and zzzzz........

[grumpycrumpy]

Advice? Or you reckon that's jjsut the way it is for me as I approach middle age? I'm usually OK with it, but sometimes just nod off early afternoon (or annoyingly on the bus home the other night, resulting in a long walk).

But most importantly, I've also come to realize that actually I'm fine on the sleep I get. And that means I stress about it much less.

I second what Andy says Chris........ It's unlikely your sleep pattern will ever return to something that you can regard as normal , so it's best to just go with what you've got .........   

[psychomansam]

There is a recent fad for theories saying that we should sleep for a while, get up for a bit, in the tiny hours and then sleep for a while again.

You could try that. Go watch pr0n quietly while the missus is sleeping?

[SamT]

I've played with a couple of apps on my phone "Sleepbot" and "sleep as android" - there are of course, iOS equivalents.

You turn em on as you go to bed, and leave your phone just next to your pillow. They use the motion sensors and microphone to record your sleep patterns and then give a load of diagnostic blurb (graphs and stuff).

I used them for a few nights and it was interesting.  The sound recording bit was mainly just shuffling though Mrs T was not impressed with me moaning 'Mina, Mina' at 3 am.

Seriously though, it gives a reasonably good picture of whats going on.  Showed that nights after a bit of red wine were more disturbed than not etc.  Piss stops were usually around the same time each night etc.

Definitely worth a few nights to get a picture of whats going on with your sleep patterns.

[rich d]

 

There is a recent fad for theories saying that we should sleep for a while, get up for a bit, in the tiny hours and then sleep for a while again.

You could try that. Go watch pr0n quietly while the missus is sleeping?

I fall asleep quite quickly and usually get woken up by the alarm or kids in the morning, but will often be awake around 1 or 2 for an hour or so and now don't let this worry me. I survive quite well on much less sleep than my wife (we're all different). My only problem is that I'll often eat cack food when I wake up, this doesn't affect me going back to sleep but it does make me fatter

[underground]

I had an enlightenment this year - I've had the last 9 years of disturbed sleep due to kids etc. but was finding that even during the night I was waking repetitively every couple of hours. I'd also been suffering with chronic sinusitis for ages too, constantly bunged up and partially deaf most of the time which sometimes meant I breathed through the mouth during the night and can't have been helping - but it didn't change sleep on clear nights. It was also really ruining my days, constantly blowing my nose, clearing my ears and getting jaw ache as a result, unable to taste food etc. I'd eventually decided it was due to my ears rather than sinuses themselves so was looking for solutions to eustachian tube dysfunction... but always rejected the earplug idea as I was afraid of sleeping through noise I 'needed' to hear like kids, alarm etc

However, the c*nt next door (for many many reasons he is one of those) got a chiming clock, attached to the party wall, so the half hourly chimes were resonating through the whole house - so after a couple of nights I reached for the plugs.

Not only did I fall asleep immediately and stay asleep, I never had a problem waking up, heard the kids when they did wake up and felt a whole lot better almost immediately. Got the noise abated with help from the council, but have continued to use earlpugs and really sleep well now.

The really good thing was that after 2 nights, the sinusitis had almost gone. It still comes back to a small extent occasionally, but I can tell my ears have been opened, and it's massively improved. Life changing.

[fatdoc]

SA Chris.. SorRy if I'm wrong... But have you posted on the yoga thread??

Get up early if u wake, do some basic breathing centring, and some static poses... The chaos of the house erupts soon after, and u all have your day..

For me.. That ( selfish) personal time means less bad tempered, more balanced and productive days....

Result, with chamomile tea,  = easier to sleep at night. Really works....

AND

U are not stressed thinkng about sleep when going to bed...

Because you have your daily yoga / meditation to look forward to in the morning.

As an aside,  i need way less sleep than I did in my 30s..

[psychomansam]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24444634

That's pure infotainment but there's shitloads of research out there on sleep, yet it's still rather hard to find any decent advice. You're all saying you need less sleep. I'm sleeping fairly similar amounts to you - unlike the other half who'd happily sleep til mid-day - yet all the SCIENCE I hear seems to say get more sleep or else.

[webbo]

These days I rarely get an unbroken nights sleep even though I have little to cause a distubance in the night other than the occasional cat jumping on the bed. I go to bed about 10 most nights and get up at 5.30 without needing an alarm clock to wake me up.
 I have to get up for a piss at least once in the night and often wake up around half three for 10 mins, although on waking I feel I need more sleep if I don't need to get up I rarely go back to sleep.
I belive the idea of waking up refreshed after a good nights sleep is an urban myth and as you get older its about as likely to happen as finding the Holy grail at the bottom of the garden.
Having said all this my other half sleeps  as TomTom decribes his missus doing. 

[Bubba]

...though Mrs T was not impressed with me moaning 'Mina, Mina' at 3 am.

Who's Mina then?

Another vote for Underground's suggestion of earplugs - I started wearing eyeshade+plugs when I was working nights and have carried on the habit even though I'm back to a day job.  I now find that if I leave them out my sleep is far more disturbed, even by little things like Ms Bubbs getting up for a piss or loud applause on an otherwise quiet TV downstairs.

I think the amount of sleep required can be quite crucual day to day and it's important to find your sweet spot rather than try to stick to a prescribed amount.  If I have <6 then I'm knackered by the next evening. 6 to 6.5 and I'm ok though not perfect but if I get 7 in then I feel just fine.

[SA Chris]

Some good advice here. To complicate matters though, I've got moderate tinnitus (which probably doesn't help in the first place!) and earplugs make it a lot worse.

The yoga in the morning is good, even better would be a morning bouldering session (indoors once the woody is done, or getting some crisp early morning sun at the closest bouldering, 10 mins walk away) trouble is running the risk of waking the rest of the family in doing so.

[underground]

I forgot to mention tinnitus Chris, I have it too and it was also one of the reasons I rejected plugs for years, but I find now that I still fall asleep and stay asleep much better. Worth a try, I've got some great ones if you want a set posting up?

[SA Chris]

What type do you use? I've tried the disposable foam ones (too uncomfortable) and got some Doc's Proplugs I bought for surfing but never used for sleeping.

[Fultonius]

Are your kids that noise sensitive that they'll wakeup at 05:30 if you get up? I thought kids hated getting up?

[petejh]

I got one of those foam mattresses recently. It's well comfy and feels like I'm floating, I don't move around in the night anymore and sleep much better. I had my fucked back operated on which got rid of the sciatic pain around the same time as I got the mattress so it's also gonna be that...