[Nibile]

I used to use the small rung of the BM.
Problems: it's quite rounded so I need to pull me in and under with the other hand not to slip off; I hang it more open handed.
I started using the incut rung. I can hold it half crimped with added weight.
Problem: it's bigger so I fear it won't work (I'm an idiot) when I'll pull on smaller holds.

Then, just to assess things: I can hang it with 3kg for left hand and with 6kg for right hand.
Is this normal or good over here? I literally have no idea.

Thanks.

[douglas]

How heavy are you?

[Nibile]

65kg.

[Sasquatch]

Pros of bigger rung:
True one arm, as the other is unconnected, so no possibility of cheating even a tiny bit.
Increased shoulder girdle strengthening
Added weight increases the overall forearm muscle strengthening

Cons:
Increased chances of injuring shoulder.
Bigger hold means more forearm muscle recruitment, and less tendon/pulley finger strengthening.

In my experience, training with added weight on bigger holds has crossed over to small holds very well, but that's n=1, and without a good comparison of the alternative.

As far as is it good or not....  I played with one arm hangs for a while this summer, and had to take off about 12-14kgs to hold the middle slot bottom row on the bm2k.

[Nibile]

Cheers.
Did the session using the incut rung. I also used it instead of the big rung to train back3.
We'll see.
Thank you.

[Nibile]

Incut rung = 14
Big rung = 5
Small rung = 10
I don't know how to refer to the holds on the right side of the board though. No numbers for those! 

[Nibile]

 

[a dense loner]

What's wrong with the mono for max hangs?

65kilos nibs? I think you need to take a lie detector test!

[douglas]

I wouldn't bother training on rung 5 at all it's too big. Pretty sure I hung that at 90kg body weight. The incut rung at half crimp with added weight sounds like the best option

[Nibile]

What's wrong with the mono for max hangs?

65kilos nibs? I think you need to take a lie detector test!

Nothing wrong with the mono, except that I can't! 

Really, I weigh 65! Does it seem too much or too little?

[a dense loner]

I weigh 76 nibs, I can't weigh 11kg more than you

[abarro81]

I don't know, you are a fat bastard, that's even more than I weigh. I can't hang anything on the bottom row 1 armed, but then I'm a weak route climber and the incut rung feels all weird to me - not comfy as crimp, half crimp or drag, least nice hold on the board IMO

[lagerstarfish]

I weigh 76 nibs, I can't weigh 11kg more than you

I think I can help clear this up.

With the imminent exit of Berlisconi from the upper house, the Italian kilo has increased significantly in value.

[Nibile]

I weigh 76 nibs, I can't weigh 11kg more than you

With the imminent exit of Berlisconi from the upper house,

Never take that for granted.

I swear I weigh 65. I'm hollow inside.

[Richie Crouch]

I found that hanging 14 really hurt the skin at the first joint and creased it up, so I have to let go due to the discomfort. Hold 11 feels like a pipe dream, so I resorted to 15 front 3 and this seems a good challenging stepping stone. All in open grip as I am a bad punter.

Did others use the same hold size progressions or add weight to 14 in order for 11 to feel ok?

[the_dom]

I hate hold 14 so I use a separate rung (approx. 2cm in depth) instead.

[Nibile]

Yes, 14 is not very comfy, but being slightly incut it's good to force myself in a half crimped position. Yesterday I also used it to train back3 half crimp (taking some weight off). With the half crimp skin pain is not an issue, but I can see how it can be with open hand.
I normally use 15 for front3 open hand, it's good, although friction dependant.
Good feelings yesterday, hung 14 with 6 kg lh and 8 kg rh.
I think my open handed strength is better than half crimped so that's why I want to train the latter. Also, half crimp engages my pinkies more. They are almost useless open handed, even on back2.

[Sasquatch]

I'm with Barrows, can't hang anything on the bottom 1 armed, and I don't even have the excuse of being a route climber.  Do have the excuse of weighing 77kg though.....

Hold 11 feels like a pipe dream

Do you mean 10, which is the sloped crimp, or 11, which is the mono?

[gme]

When people say hold them how long do they mean for. 1-2 secs (ie falling off slightly slower) or 7-8 secs.

[Sasquatch]

For me, I can't hang any of the bottom ones for even 1-2 seconds......

My usual method is to hang stright arm and try to lift my feet off the ground(no jumping of course).  That way there's no "slowly" falling.  You either get your feet off the ground or you don't.....

[Richie Crouch]

Do you mean 10, which is the sloped crimp, or 11, which is the mono?

Yes sorry... hold 10.

If I can finish off my project for the year, I am hoping to become the weakest person to ever climb font 8B. 

[Nibile]

On holds that I can't really hang, I start by doing little jumps as if I were one arming the hold, trying to control the descent. It's a very brief hang, repeated for a few times in a row. Eventually I get to hang the hold after some time.
As for max hangs, of course it depends on how max you want your hangs. 2 seconds is very max, 6 is max, 10 is not mqx anymore.

[the_dom]

For me, I can't hang any of the bottom ones for even 1-2 seconds......

My usual method is to hang stright arm and try to lift my feet off the ground(no jumping of course).  That way there's no "slowly" falling.  You either get your feet off the ground or you don't.....

I weigh 88kgs!

If it helps, I find that, instead of jumping, I pull up on my rung and the slopey BM 2 finger pocket and try to lock off for as long as possible. After a few sessions, I'm able to lock the hold and, after a few more, get some upward movement.

[joe dobson]

how are you guys holding the position arm wise? I've found that I can do a one armer on hold 5 but locking it out for a repeater session (6 sets of 7 secs on) bloody hard (I use a rope to take some weight off).

I tend to hold it slightly bent (so about 160/170 degrees) or are you guys doing it straight armed or even locked at 90 degrees?

[Nibile]

To me, the harder the hang, the more tension I have to generate.
So while I can deadhang good holds with a relaxed body and (almost) straight arm even with added weight, on smaller holds I want to pull as if doing a one armer, putting arm and shoulder under tension even if not bending the arm too much.
Completely straight arms and loose shoulders are a good way to injury.
I am quite sure that the isometric effort of heavy deadhanging proved very effective for one armers and general pulling power.

[joe dobson]

Thats my thinking hence slightly bent, just had a session on my own board rather then the one at MCC. When its mounted on a pull up bar there considerably harder seeing how it moves when you hang from it...

It terms of length of time are you doing absolute maximum or doing repeater sets?

[Nibile]

Nope. No repeaters for me. I fried my elbows twice with repeaters (but I'm also an idiot).
Just max or sub max hangs.

[Sasquatch]

I weigh 88kgs!

If it helps, I find that, instead of jumping, I pull up on my rung and the slopey BM 2 finger pocket and try to lock off for as long as possible. After a few sessions, I'm able to lock the hold and, after a few more, get some upward movement.

I was at 85-90kg for many years.  Dropping 10kg made a huge difference in my climbing. So much so that I'm hoping to drop another 5kg.  Uisng the slopey pocket seems like a good idea as it'll help me start to learn the pocket as well as doing the one arm work.

Nope. No repeaters for me. I fried my elbows twice with repeaters (but I'm also an idiot).
Just max or sub max hangs.

, with the caveat that I'm doing a 3 week cycle of repeaters about twice a year...  I want the finger volume specificity, but I'm really careful with the elbows during this period and take LOADS of rest.

I am quite sure that the isometric effort of heavy deadhanging proved very effective for one armers and general pulling power.

I've found the same thing.  Doing added weigt heavy hangs has done more to increase my max pulling strength than weighted pullup sets ever did.  Weird but effective..

[the_dom]

I was at 85-90kg for many years.  Dropping 10kg made a huge difference in my climbing. So much so that I'm hoping to drop another 5kg.  Uisng the slopey pocket seems like a good idea as it'll help me start to learn the pocket as well as doing the one arm work.

Yeah, losing 6 or 8 kgs would make a big difference, but I'm not likely to get below 80kgs at my height (6'4"). That said, my fingers and one arm lock off power are not appreciably weaker than when I weighed 80 or 81kgs.

[Nibile]

Just in case you're all losing your sleep over this issue, second session today. Managed 7 kg left hand and 10 kg right hand. Big big gains, for sure just neurological but who cares?
Hopefully I'll climb a 6b over the weekend in a new area. 

[Sasquatch]

Big big gains, for sure just neurological but who cares?

Random question/thought.  If the gains are Nuero, are they specific to that exercise? If so, how much(if any) would translate over to real rock?

[the_dom]

Big big gains, for sure just neurological but who cares?

Random question/thought.  If the gains are Nuero, are they specific to that exercise? If so, how much(if any) would translate over to real rock?

My understanding of neuro gains is that they're pretty rapid and big, and that the real gains come later.

I certainly noticed that some of my biggest gains in terms of hard(-ish) climbing, i.e. going from doing the occasional 7C to doing a bunch of 8As in the space of a few months, came at a period when I was doing one arm hangs regularly, but never more than four or five in a session on each arm (caveat: I was also doing lots of other training). I also noticed that after 2 or 3 months of regular one arm training (mainly negatives on an edge), I could suddenly almost do a one arm pullup on a bar, which I'd never been able to get close to before.

I think it translates in terms of a base of strength, from the fingers all the way through to the shoulder girdle, rather than necessarily a direct translation.

[Nibile]

One armed fingerboarding (but heavy two armed as well) has very good effects on pulling power, shoulder strength and the likes.
As far as "real" climbing goes... Tricky one for me to answer. I seriously doubt I touched rock in the last couple of months, and I haven't tried a new problem in probably the whole year.
Strange days.
Regardless, I am trying to pack in as many sessions I can with the limited time I have now. I'm doing something a little more PE oriented, for another project that I don't know when I'll be able to try, with two sessions dedicated to short circuits or laps on problems. In these sessions, I manage the mindblowing amount of nearly 100 moves and then at dinner I need to be fed.

[Nibile]

Update (in case anyone is interested).
I stuck to the incut rung for the one arm dead hangs, along with other holds as before.
Yesterday I started the fifth week - see the AnCap AeroCap thread - and noticed some noticeable gains. (See what I did there?)
I have increased the added weight to 8 kg for LH (two weeks ago it was 7 kg), and to 12 kg for RH (10 kg before).
So, at first I thought that the weekly gains were just neurological, but now? Maybe not? Yesterday I felt good and I thought I could add one kg more to each hang but didn't want to overdo it.
I think I could have done another one or two sessions before starting this thread, so maybe I've done 6/7 sessions. Other training aside.
Could it be that bouldering on the board, meanwhile, has kind of "consolidated" the neurological gains of the first sessions?
Very geeky I know.
Just curious.
As long as I keep adding weights, I don't care how it happens.

[petejh]

Earlier in the year I was doing one-armers on the beastmaker incut (bottom middle or 14 on Toby's picture) at 3 different arm positions as per the Chirs Webb-Parsons routine (arm almost straight, half bent and full lock).
At the start of the 6 weeks I could just about hang one-armed (i.e. 1 second) on the incut, no weight added.

By the end of the 6 weeks:
LH I could hang 8 -10 seconds / RH 4-6 seconds. That's in each of the 3 positions, the full lock being hardest.

It all went to shit anyway as I'm out of action all year but that's another story. Hoping to be able to start fingerboarding by November so it'll be interesting to see if I've kept anything or whether it was more neurological.

[Nibile]

Sorry to hear you had to stop.
I don't know when gains stop being neurological and start being more consistent. After weeks? Months?

[Nibile]

I resurrect this one for an update that I think could be of some help.
As said, for a few months I only fingerboarded with holds 14 and 15 of my BM: back3 half crimp on 15; front3 open on 14 with added weight; normal half crimp with added weight on 15.
The usual session is:
Back3 - short rest - back3 - proper rest - front3 - short rest - front3 - proper rest. This for three times. Then the normal four fingers hang with added weight, three or four hangs up to max load.

Yesterday after many months, I tested myself on my other BM session, that involves pockets and monos, obviously open.
Despite not training them for months, I retained all of my strength, and also improved on ring monos.
On the board I don't drag or openhand anything.

So, from my experience it seems that my training, mostly half crimped except for the front3, was effective also for dragging pockets with two fingers (front, middle, back2) and monos (index, middle and ring).

Opinions?
Thanks.

[bendavison]

That's interesting. How long do you hang the mono's/pockets for? Is it a similar structure to your one arm session? I found that one arm max hangs (~5 secs) didn't seem to help repeaters/longer hangs all that well initially. Though its difficult to say because my fingers were undoubtedly stronger, but I was just getting tired. After a week or two of mainly repeaters I was back to where I was and continued to improve afterwards. Whether this was due to max hangs or repeaters I don't know. As an aside (or two), when I focus on fingerboarding now I tend to do 2/3 repeaters and 1/3 max hangs over the week, but not in the same session, and maybe a few max hangs before a board session just to get recruited. And I switched from doing one arm hangs on the incut rung on the 2000 to the lower smallish rung on the 1000.

[Nibile]

Hey. All my fingerboarding sessions are about max hangs. No repeaters, since they did very bad to my elbows on the rare occasione on which I tried them.
The structure is basically the same, one max hang for each prehension, x3 (rarely 4) times.
I tried to develop a sequence that ensured enough rest for fingers involved in more than one hang (typically middle and ring) otherwise it would be a three hours session with lots of resting!

[bendavison]

That probably explains why your transition between session types was more successful than mine! I'm not sure why it would translate well to pockets though, but would be interested to find out. So +1 to nibs' question.

I tried to develop a sequence that ensured enough rest for fingers involved in more than one hang (typically middle and ring) otherwise it would be a three hours session with lots of resting!

I 'came up with' a session in the middle ground of max hangs and repeaters (for which I'll probably be slated because it doesn't fit to the must-have-lots-of-rest ideal with near max intensity stuff). Basically its 4 or 5 prehensions, and hung each 5 times, for 5 seconds with 10 seconds between hangs. So basically repeaters but less hanging time, and more rest. 2-3mins rest between prehensions. 2 sets of that. I found I could do really hard grip types, and it felt like if done properly it could yield lots of gains, but is obviously risky. As an example I would do: middle mono's, back 2 on small rung (or one on small rung one on small pocket), front 2 crimp, 45's (or a mix of 35's and 45's) and one arm hangs either half crimped or open. The order was quite important.

[Paul B]

Back 2 Dan has advocated 5 / 5 repeaters in some of his text in the past (similar to your 5 / 10) for breaking into new grip types. This is what I do for strength work.

[tomtom]

I do beastmaker style 7 / 3 's but count the 7's fast and the 3's sloooow

[Nibile]

Sorry I think I highjacked my own topic, but not so much. The original question was about which hold to use for max one arm hangs. I chose holds number 14 and 15 and trained on front3, back3 and normal half crimp.
After months, I found out that I have improved not only in the trained prehensions, but also in front2, middle2, back2 and all monos, despite training the open hand grip only with 3x2 hangs on hold 14 with added weight each session.
Hence the question about why this happened.

[luk_fiz]

(At first - sorry for my bad English specially in medical terms).

To Nibile: could You more precisely describe (or maybe put some video if possible) Your arm positioning during one arm max hangs exercise? Is Your arm more pronated or supinated or whatever? At what position is Your torso in relation to hangboard, bar, etc?

I am asking since I am trying to fight my terrible "dual armism": despite I can quite easily perform dual arm push-ups with ~80% of my body weight added, hold small rungs for relatively long time (to be precise: relatively long for my general strength level, I hope:) I am very weak doing the same with single arms: almost unable to hold 25mm wooden rung single hand, supinated arm, and despite hard work very little progress here.

[Nibile]

Hey! I usually put my torso with shoulders perpendicular to the board.
Anyway, for one arm work in general a strong shoulder girdle is essential. It's a very different positon from two armed, frontal work. You can find many topics on here about one arm pull ups and dead hangs.
I have some videos on my Vimeo page. Look for Lorenzo Frusteri.
I hope this helps.

[luk_fiz]

Hi Nibile,
Thanks for rapid answer. I have seen the gallery - front levers and this vid You perform 5 or 6 one-armers on big, wooden hold are specially impressive.

Personally I am trying to perform both forearm strength (where forearm seems to be limiting factor - with "good holds" - bar or good jug) and grip strength (the same but on worse holds like rung or smaller climbing holds) training with pronated forearm. Since I am not as much interested in one armers like on hanging on weak holds I am trying to bend the catching arm, grip hold and slowly bent the legs up, while gently press other hand on something to prevent rotation around vertical axis (preserve shoulders in parallel to the board).
The problem is, that notice very little gains here, and even my relatively better performance in the same exercises performed with supinated arm are not translated to this.

Many thanks,
Luk

[Sasquatch]

nibs,
Which hold is 15?  My image has #14 as the bottom center incut edge on the BM2K. 

As a guess on the question, it looks like you're training the middle two fingers at both 1/2 crimp and open, so I can't think of a reason those wouldn't transfer into pockets as well. 

[Nibile]

Sasq, sorry if I mistook the holds.
Just to clarify: I train normal half crimp and back3 on the bottom central incut rung; front3 open on the smallest of the two three fingers slots.

Then, yes it's true that I train middle and ring fingers also open, but when I do so, the relative effort that I feel is nowhere close to the one I feel when on monos, due to the aid of the other fingers. My index gets a big load, my middle as well, and my ring little.
Example:
Front3 open +8 kg (one armed): 65 (bodyweight)+8=73 kg. 24 kg on each finger (average);
Ring monos +12 kg (two armed): 65+12=77 kg. 38 kg on each finger.

So, as it seems, sub max hangs produced gains also on max hangs?

Luk, I think that when training at max intensity, even the smallest changes in arm, wrist and fingers positioning are crucial and all the differences and weaknesses are highlighted.

[Boredboy]

Hi Nibile,
Thanks for rapid answer. I have seen the gallery - front levers and this vid You perform 5 or 6 one-armers on big, wooden hold are specially impressive.

Personally I am trying to perform both forearm strength (where forearm seems to be limiting factor - with "good holds" - bar or good jug) and grip strength (the same but on worse holds like rung or smaller climbing holds) training with pronated forearm. Since I am not as much interested in one armers like on hanging on weak holds I am trying to bend the catching arm, grip hold and slowly bent the legs up, while gently press other hand on something to prevent rotation around vertical axis (preserve shoulders in parallel to the board).
The problem is, that notice very little gains here, and even my relatively better performance in the same exercises performed with supinated arm are not translated to this.

Many thanks,
Luk

Hey Luk, I had the same problem as you about 12 months ago. Ok on small edge 1/2 crimp weighted hangs 2 armed but bad on anything one armed. I also thought it would be a good idea to see if one arm strength in the pronated position with my shoulders square on to the fingerboard would translate better to climbing. I've done 12 months of progressive max hangs with various static and dynamic assistance usually having easy medium and max weeks like chris wp suggests. I've done all the hangs on a 4 finger 1 pad edge 1/2 crimp. Usual routine consists of 2 hangs of either 5secs 10 secs or max with 5 min rest in between each hang. I've done this at 15 deg elbow bent 90 deg and full pull up and down, no locks beyond 90 as it seems to cause elbow pain. I've generally done the session once a week and it takes about 30-40 mins as I'm mostly resting. The results seem to have been much better than any repeater routines I've previously done, and I can now hang a one pad edge in these positions for a few seconds and nearly do a pull up on one. Hope that helps.

[luk_fiz]

Hi,
This is very helpful specially in terms of routine description - as Nibile adequately put, the real limiting factor in training of this thing is training/resting ratio over single session.
Yesterday evening I have visited local gym and try to elaborate issue with BM2000. Using only supinated position like Nibile in his vids I have found to be able to hang up to 6 sec one armed, arm bent <90deg on deepest BM pocket (middle row, center, nr 9) and a bit shorter on second-shallower pocket (middle row, aside, nr 5). This times were greatly reduced by further repetition in one repeater seg - it seems that Boredboy is right about ~mins resting periods.
It was also possible to improve hanging time by placing palm of second hand on the arm of grabbing one - in the middle on biceps or almost in the shoulder joint. For me it proves, that in my case limiting factor is strengh, fatigue and general condition of shoulder and biceps, even on small hold.

Did You try all of this exercises with arm pronated? (as far as I understand CWP in his video he uses somewhere between pronated and supinated position).
 

Luk

[Nibile]

I generally one arm deadhang like in the videos, so halfway between pronation and supination, shoulder square to the hold.
On back3, though, sometimes I want to fully supinate, so I have to basically have to put myself on the other side of the board and grab the hold with the palm facing myself; I do this because this position engages much more my pinky, which in the normal half/half position, due to its shorter length compared to ring finger, gets very little activation.

Anyway in my last session I added 2 kg to both left and right hand, half crimp. Now it's getting heavy, it worked my lats and arms quite heavily. Good session.