[Alan James, Rockfax]

Would, as Andy said earlier "The only place the name and grade of this non route were ever recorded was in an entirely private early draft of my script for the definitive BMC guide", be what would be counted as a reliable source document? If so, I presume it was referred to in said guidebook and Andy Popp thanked for his contribution?

We couldn't possibly credit this text since we weren't aware it even existed.

The information was written on a print out of the Rockfax guidebook page, with lines marked on the photo-topo, and a grade and basic information scribbled in the margin in red pen. It was presented to us as information only and we never saw any 'private draft'. I can only surmise that the person who commented on our text also had seen or access to the pages Andy refers to, and this person is credited in our book.

Alan

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Alan, you're basically saying that it's your word against Andy's. In the absence of a response from Andy and in light of the revelations about the disparity between Rockfax's actual contributions to the NWBF and those you represented, do you think you can expect to have any credibility here?

I don't expect to get a fair hearing here, no.

I am a happy to acknowledge that my earlier comments about bolt funds were misleading and I apologise for those. I did give something to bolting on the Ormes but it wasn't significant. There was no way I would ever have been able to make any significant donation back in 1997-2000 anyway, when that book was selling in numbers, since the business was making a pittance.

Alan

[petejh]

Nonetheless, I think it's pretty ungracious how to begin with there was the call to "reduce the limestone coverage" after Pete sort of got the wrong end of the stick with the databases. To begin with it seemed pretty dick-ish of RF, but Alan has cut a load of stuff. Yes he has still included a lot of the popular routes on the popular buttresses, but anyone can find those by using NWR and the Wiki, as I have done.

This is so inaccurate that I have to answer it. 
I not only got the correct end of the stick, I identified the type of wood and the tree it came from - I couldn't have guessed rockfax's intentions more correctly if I'd been working for them. I claimed rockfax were intending to include around 350 routes on NW limestone out of a total of 1000 in a N.Wales 'select' guide. This is exactly what they were intending to do, as confirmed by Alan's subsequent comments:
Alan - 'We are including most sport routes on the crags we cover though since that is our normal policy since these are the routes that tend to get climbed, which is around 250 odd routes on the Great Orme for example.' UKC post.
Alan - The current page allocation in North Wales Climbs is 76. UKC post
Alan 'Now that I have done a reassessment of what we are going to cover it in fact will only be 52 pages in the guide and around 250 routes on NWL.  - in an email to my co-author and the NWBF.

So, after Alan cutting coverage it's still 56 pages and 250 routes. This is down from 76 pages and ??? routes prior to cutting coverage. It was 250 on the Great Orme alone. (The Little Orme, Penmaen Head and Castle Inn easily add up to 100+ routes).

The wrong end of the stick my arse.

Then everyone was angry that Alan had said he had donated to "bolt funds" (the exact terminology used I think). So when it was found that the last time he donated to a North Walian Bolt Fund was when he had done the previous guide (That Pete is using to make his guide - ironic??) there is an outrage.

I was working on the definitive guide last night, in front of me were copies of the Andy Pollitt 1987 guide, the Andy Pollitt 1983 guide, Steve Meyers's 1992 guide and yes, Alan James's 1997 guide. All of these guidebooks built on the guides before them - Pollitt's built on Rowland Edward's guides. If you read the route descriptions in any of these guides and compare them they all follow on from the guidebooks before them. I will build on Alan's guidebook,this isn't new.

I'm pretty sure Alan said he had donated to bolt funds in general, and if you look on the RF website, when you go to buy a book, you are given the option of donating to the dorset bolt fund or the ACT... evil, I know.

I'm pretty sure you're making this up. Alan was shown up for wording his answers so that it looked, to any casual observer, like he was involved in making recent donations to the NWBF. Please note - no-one said he should be donating - if he isn't producing guides to the area there's no reason why he should donate. It was just illustative of how typical it is for Alan to spin facts and dodge giving straight answers in order to deflect awkward questions about how rockfax operate. (the figure donated in 1997 was £200 - Alan can correct me if it's untrue - but really, back then the level of re-equipping was a lot less and there were other reasons which might have led Alan to feel, justifiably, that his money mightn't achieve it's intended aim).

So now that Alan said he'll donate profits (and no doubt add the NWBF into the RF checkout system) and reduce coverage, everyone still has a hissy fit! Pretty unbelievable, though highly entertaining.

Rockfax's donation is welcome. Our guide will be donating from day 1 through sales of the App. If people aren't put off buying our book by my lack of grace, then it'll give around £10000 to the NWBF over the long term.
I'm now thinking of just changing my policy and donating money straight away -  since rockfax helpfully pointed out the terrible flaw in my naive plan of waiting to break even - I mean, how will the bolt fund ever survive otherwise? Perhaps as it always has - through donations from individuals and companies (Groundup/Mike Doyle et al  ). Perhaps I'll do £1.50 per copy -  I mean, that'll make us look good and them look bad right?; and trying spin it so 'we' look good and 'they' look bad is what this is debate is all about, right? Or are there perhaps some genuine points worth bashing out here about fair play, what's in the best interests of climbing areas and respect for other people's hard work.

I have read both threads with glee. Pete doesn't need the money (you said so yourself) Alan has kids and employees to pay. Yep, it's nice to have shiny bolts, and Pete has done a mega effort putting a handline into the diamond (RF wont profit from this) and all the other stuff, yet you all still use UKC for free (Even Pete does!!), probably have one or two RF guides.

Sheesh. So your logic here seems to be implying if you need the money you can act how you please with no respect for anyone or anything.
In that case, fuck it, I'll just quit ever doing anything for the good of anyone except myself if that's how we want the world to be. And now that I'm in this selfish little bubble where everyone else can fuck off, I quite feel like I need to sell a few more guidebooks. I think I'm going to include all of just the good routes on Clwyd Limestone and put them in a section of our definitive guidebook entitled 'comprehensive-selective Clwyd Limestone' - I mean, I'll sell more copies of the guide if I do. Fuck anyone else's longer term definitive plans for Clwyd limestone and fuck anyone who'd quite like to see all the climbing in the area described well in a definitive guidebook, I want to sell more guidebooks.
 
 

The only problem I have with the RF NWC is I can't see what the point in it is, when there is NWR which, to my mind is as good as anything. Having come to North Wales 4 years ago with one clutched to my breast it has served as my Bible ever since, and yes I've bought the 'Beris, Big G, Trem-dog, Slate definitives, but it's still a book I reach for time and time again. I feel more sorry for Pantontino than NWL authors!

I fully agree - Groundup's ability to produce unprofitable definitive guidebooks isn't going to be helped by rockfax's insistence on competing for the profitable select guidebook market in N.Wales. I personally think that's a negative for the N.Wales climbing scene. I'm not alone, many people think the same. Groundup contribute real value to our N.Wales climbing scene; Rockfax really do not contribute.
It's a simple choice to make - hopefully other people will choose to support people who have a genuine love for the N.Wales climbing scene and who are also trying to make a basic living from it, along with the volunteer guidebooks who aren't. Note - making a living can still mean not pissing off all around them or showing bad faith toward anyone deemed a competitor. But really, climbing guidebooks aren't a traditional money-spinner unless you're prepared to trample on lots of toes.

... in fact Pete's lack of grace at Alan's reduction of the Lime section and promise to give money to the bolt fund have made me think twice, to begin with I could see his point (even though i think he jumped the gun a bit) but now I think you are being a bit childish, Pete. Alan has said he believes there wasn't room for two definitives,  so didn't make one. He hasn't really encroached on your definitive term with his lime section, but has cut it and pledged money to the bolt fund. what more do you want?? A handjob?

A handjon from Alan? Well he does often act in ways that suggests he likes giving them; hmmm.. I've had some weird encounters but that would almost certainly trump all of them combined.
But seriously - a lack of grace at Alan's reduction in coverage and donation?    I had to read this a few times to make sure you were serious.
Rockfax have 'cut coverage' of NW lime routes in their select guidebook down to, wait for it:
one whole quarter of the total NW select guidebook. 250 routes on NW lime out of 1000 routes in total.

So the whole of North Wales's amazing rock-climbing - Clogwyn Du'r Arddu, Clogwyn Grochan, Dinas Mot, Craig Pant Ifan, Craig Bwylh y Moch, Carreg Hyll-Drem, Carreg Wastad, Gogarth South, Gogarth North, Cyrn Las, Lliwedd, Dinas Cromlech, Craig Ddu, The Moelwyns, The Slate, Mid-Wales, Idwal, Glyder Fawr, Clogwyn y Geifr, Glyder Fach, Tryfan, Carneddau, Crafnant, Nantle,   - all this is deemed worthy of being pared down to 750 routes. Meanwhile, a relatively minor limestone area is deemed worthy of 250 routes? This at the exact time that the definitive guidebook is due to be published. In an area hasn't had a definitive guidebook for 16 years and as a consequence of which all crags (outside the popular ones which rockfax want to comprehensively cover) are suffering from major neglect. In an area also hamstrung by needing to re-equip all the crap 80s fixed gear littered throughout.
Excuse me, but what the hell you talking about? Who's really acting with a lack of grace here?
Clue: It's Alan James.
Unbelievable.
Buy our guide, don't buy it  - I'm not doing this it to make you or anybody else like me. I'm doing it purely because this area deserves a definitive guidebook and no-one else could be bothered doing the job. You might find yourself appreciating the effort we're making, sometime in the future when you're exploring some currently unknown crag - or maybe you won't, maybe you'll wish you stuck to LPT with the rockfax.
Either way don't feed me some bullshit about showing lack of grace towards utterly cyncial self-serving out-for-number-one behavior.
 

I think this is further proof that all climbers are, essentially  on the internet, bet all of you haters are lovely in real life! Pete's a bit surly but seemed alright, and Alan seems pretty nice too, (having not spent much time with either).

I'm surly but cuddly on the inside.

Maybe we should remember that there are people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about some bolts in the second worst climbing venue in North Wales 

Ah, the 'starving other in a far off land' straw-man argument. How very banal. A starving child is 99 times out of 100 guaranteed to trump, in debate top-trumps, whichever argument it is you're trying to trivialize but it contributes nothing to the actual debate other than remind people of the already well-known fact that it's an unequal world. Thanks for the news update Geldof, now go and donate to Oxfam.
Please apply your 'it's not important compared to starving African children' logic next time a loved one/ boss or friend asks you to act about anything they consider important, I'm sure it'll go down a treat with them.

Btw there's sunken-cheeked victims of starvation to be found in Llandudno too - Diamond season can be horrific.


Finally, Alan has shown he's prepared to cut coverage and that's a very welcome move which is appreciated (believe it or not). To show good faith he should further cut it down to the level of a select guide, i.e. by at minimum another 50 routes.

[andy popp]

Alan's posts are so disingenuous I'm not going to bother responding. Can everyone else refrain from pitching in on my behalf. Thanks.

[shark]

My girlfriends a cancer research nurse, I've just told her about the guidebook and the comparison. This is what she said "what there's climbing in Wales?"

Whoa. Hold the front page. You have a girlfriend? 

[a dense loner]

I only said that to change tact for a second on this thread of Insanity

[Doylo]

You'd need a mental health nurse shag

[a dense loner]

Don't I know it

[webbo]

Did someone ask for a mental health nurse or a shag with mental health nurse. Either way my fees are reasonable.

[tomtom]

Did someone ask for a mental health nurse or a shag with mental health nurse. Either way my fees are reasonable.

Your prices were reasonable, but I thought your hands were a bit rough. (just some feedback)

[Johnny Brown]

Just a rebuttal to all those handing out +ve karma for suggestions of getting perspective etc.

This is a thread about climbing guides, on a climbing forum. If you're so appalled by the debate, and want to argue about cancer or starving kids, fuck off to a starving kids forum. I bet none of you have given up massive chunks of your spare time bolting crags or writing guidebooks, only to find there are those desperate to profit from it.

Edit: I have been involved in issues a tad more depressing than this recently - such as access to crags. And it struck me that, as climbers, if we can't manage a little issue like this in a reasonable and fair way between ourselves, what fucking hope is there?

[Pantontino]

Well said JB.

I don't think people "need to take a step back" as Tom put it when he wadded gme. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be thrashed out on a climbing forum.

Irrespective of what you think of Rockfax's previous output or contribution to the development of climbing guidebooks, they have acted in a highly contentious manner. You can't tell people to not discuss this, well you can, but don't expect anybody to listen.

The people handing out the wad points to gme are not part of the North Wales climbing scene - if they were (or if something similar happened on their doorstep) I dare say they would see things a little differently.

[T_B]

I don't think people "need to take a step back" as Tom put it when he wadded gme. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be thrashed out on a climbing forum.

It's been thrashed to death. I wadded Gav because I agree with his point that the definitive guide will sell on its own merits. End of story. The demonizing of Rockfax is totally over the top in my opinion.

(JB - I wasn't meaning "take a step back, there are more important issues in the world")

[Sasquatch]

To me one of the foundational questions to ask is "What do you want out of a guidebook?" 

Rockfax is like the "Old Navy" of guidebooks.  They only make money on turnover, but everyone knows there shit has no real worth or substance. 

Classic guidebooks that stick through history have more to them and people crave them.  They're classic from day 1 and everyone knows it.  We have a local ice climbing guide that has been out of print for 20 years.  It only gets passed around by photocopy, and you'll never find it on the net.  You have to earn it, but it's classic and will continue this way for a long time.  It has stories to read, pictures to inspire, and has a place on every local Alaska climbers shelf.

Decide what you want your guidebook to be and strive to make it that.  True Class will show through. 

[crimp]

Did someone ask for a mental health nurse or a shag with mental health nurse. Either way my fees are reasonable.

Your prices were reasonable, but I thought your hands were a bit rough. (just some feedback)

This needs clarification. Exactly how reasonable are Webbo's prices? And how rough were his hands?

[chummer]

the best thing about all this whole rather juvenile thread is how it has bought to light what UKBers really are.  You are exactly the same as the UKCers you despise, which in turn makes you worse as you believe you are so much better

Quote from a previous post from you bubbles:

"Hello,

I tried to post this on cocktalk, but after three replies thought I might get better answers on a website where people actually climb..."

 

[Offwidth]

Whatever, there is less choice where to post now as the thread is closed over there.

[underground]

Just a thought (which will undoubtedly become a tangent shifting ramble) - with analogies to Tesco etc. - most of us probably have to shop there or one of the others because in reality (that fits in with the various time and monetary constraints of most people trying to balance work and life etc) there's no alternative - I've tried to buy all my food and stuff locally / ethically etc. and it's just not feasible and bloody expensive). I wouldn't have fancied trying to source an English guidebook to El Chorro in the mid 90's when the internet was a lot different to what it is now either.

So whilst climbing is a very different thing altogether, it's undoubtedly big business compared to 20 years ago, and companies are out there to make a shedload of cash, and most won't be based on the Chouinard model of ethics. I also doubt that Alan James wants to stay / be poor as a result of his business exploits.

So back to Tesco - do they give a fuck? No - they do what they have to do to assuage the captive customer that actually they're quite nice really, by building relationships with a few farmers who they don't trample into the ground driving costs down for themselves, (look at the UK dairy industry vs Milk Marketing Board, the MMB's biggest investor is allegedly Manchester United FC, FFS) Even a behemoth like Procter and Gamble allegedly are forced to sell tampons and sanitary towels at a 20% loss just to get them in the store as they are one of those 'shop elsewhere if not available' products.... And in that aspect, Rockfax can do what they want too, obviously if they are not plagiarising other peoples intellectual property or copy, it's just about selling stuff and making cash. Just look at 'Team Bullshit' or whoever they are on The Apprentice...

So, looking at the way climbing seems to have gone in the last decade or more, there are probably loads of folks out there who would much prefer the selected climbs rather than a definitive guide because they'll go there one weekand a year and clip a few bolts and climb some polished Ogwen classics (I dunno, maybe this is the generic Pork Farms pork pie rather than the one a farmer made using his own organic pigs for someone who just wants to eat a pork pie).

Also in response to gme, we can get a bit blase about the odd 30 / 50 quid here and there but for a lot of people I imagine spending 25 quid on an extra guidebook just for the shelf is a big deal, it could be the difference between staying in the black and going overdrawn in a month. I would say though, the pride is in excellence and being the best in the industry, rather than cutting corners just to slay the competitors I'd have thought, given the possible consequences...

So assuming they are the majority nowadays, maybe not skint but not rich, quite like climbing but not super keen types, there's a massive market share absorbed straight away. Reducing the number of routes / coverage etc. won't make any bloody difference.

But, getting eventually to the point - with supermarkets, there is now little to no choice - they are all essentially a damned if you do damned if you don't option. The answer would be to only shop at your local grocer/butcher/fishmonger etc.... but where are all those now?

With guidebooks, we still have a choice - Pete is the local grocer, we have to buy his book, and not the Rockfax one, otherwise he might not bother, and eventually, maybe no one else will either, and then Rockfax might decide to sell up and retire, and go climbing, and the new Tesco Guidebooks PLC will get bigger and richer and more detached from the reality of what guidebooks should be, and even take on the BMC, and we'll all be buying 'Selected safe < E2 routes for a weekend on Stanage' because there'll be nothing else.

I don't know the answer to the problem though which is - how does the small business priding themselves on excellence, compete with the big one with a determination to walk roughshod over them in pursuit of profit, other than convincing the buying public to vote with their feet.

[Jaspersharpe]

The answer would be to only shop at your local grocer/butcher/fishmonger etc.... but where are all those now?

Woodseats mate.

[SEDur]

So, is the definitive guide still being released?
When can I pick up a copy?

Cheers