[ian dunn]

From what I have heard it was a non climbing mother that bought and assembled the quick draws and gave them to her daughter. Tito was climbing with the daughter and picked up the 'new' quick draws and lead the route with them. 8 out of 12 were assembled incorrectly and unfortunately he used the correctly assembled ones at the bottom of the route.

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness. I would like to think that I might have spotted something out of the ordinary but i cannot honestly say I would have picked up the situation particularly if as shown in some of the videos it was just clipped into the dogbone / string and not through the tape, and so partially hidden.

As someone who has introduced lots of young climbers to outdoor sport climbing and helped those that wanted to, push themselves to climb hard routes I can only reiterate that as coaches / instructors it is vital that we check, check and check again. If anything can be learned from this terrible tragedy then it is we need to check quick draws as well as knots and belay devices. In gyms most often the quick draws are in-situ and we need to consider this when looking at the transition from indoors to outdoors, especially now as most climbers first experiences are in the indoor environment unlike when I started climbing where we started outside.

I cannot imagine the pain and heart ache the person who set the quick draws up or the instructors are going through and I can honestly say there for the grace of god go I, and a lot of other instructors too.

My sincere condolences to Tito's family and friends and can the climbing world learn a lesson from this unfortunate avoidable accident.

[Muenchener]

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness.

Understandable, yes. Nevertheless I would argue that it's not completely unreasonable, and quite possibly the major Lesson Learned from this high profile incident, to ask that the instructors / responsible adults should personally check all gear being used by a group of kids.

[slackline]

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness.

Understandable, yes. Nevertheless I would argue that it's not completely unreasonable, and quite possibly the major Lesson Learned from this high profile incident, to ask that the instructors / responsible adults should personally check all gear being used by a group of kids.

Not sure if you finished reading the post, but there is no need to "argue" as you both seem to be in agreement...

I can only reiterate that as coaches / instructors it is vital that we check, check and check again. If anything can be learned from this terrible tragedy then it is we need to check quick draws as well as knots and belay devices.

[ghisino]

can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness

it depends.

in france (were i work as an instructor) the law "de facto" requires you to use your own gear (or your gym's), and that such gear has a referenced history (some register with date of purchase, yearly check report, instructions, serial numbers, etc)

in a similar accident to tito's thinstructor would be legally responsible for allowing gear that did not meet the above requirements.

[slackline]

Manslaughter Charges Filed

[abarro81]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

[dave]

Seems bollocks to me, going after the shop and manufacturer. Its now the shop's job to stop you doing something stupid. Do they sue Fiat every time someone does a hit and run?

Now asking questions of any adults in a position of having a duty of care within that group, (i.e. instructors, parents/guardians) that seems legit.

[kelvin]

... just really sad. Was gonna put my thoughts but it all seems a little irrelevant still compared to the kid dying.

Italian justice and law seems pretty skewed from over here.

[andyd]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

Nope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model
Stage 2?

[SA Chris]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

I feel very uncomfortable.

[Oldmanmatt]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

Nope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model
Stage 2?

+1

It's not that there should be no repercussions.

Something was wrong with the supervision, possibly blasé due to over familiarity, and somewhere along the line it was forgotten that kids are not able to take full responsibility for themselves and others.

But Manslaughter?

Nuts!

Idiotic, self-righteous, headline grabbing, drama queen histrionics; laced with grief driven desire for vengeance.

Heartbroken parents, desperate for someone to blame (other than themselves), mixed with politics.

Prepare for new, crushing, legislation; that will destroy half the outdoor education industry and drive up insurance premiums...

Because, this is likely to resonate up to a European level and it seems there is no such thing as an ACCIDENT anymore.
(After all, all accidents could have been prevented at some point before they occurred. For instance, if the shop owner who supplied the draws, had not been born, then he couldn't have sold them! So clearly it must be his parents fault! Malice afore-thought, surely!)

[Wood FT]

Any legal boffs - Can something that has happened in Europe set a legal precedent over here?

p.s well said Matt, couldn't get the wording right myself.

[shark]

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

"The manager of the club that organized the trip and two instructors that were on site are charged for failing to control the correct assembly of the equipment"


This implies one of the kids assembled the draws 

[abarro81]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

[shark]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it? If the parent had both lent and assembled the draws you would think they would be on the charge list too

[Ru]

Any legal boffs - Can something that has happened in Europe set a legal precedent over here?

I think the charges (if that's what they are) have been brought under Italian law, which won't set any legal precedents here.

I'm unsure if these are criminal charges or the start of a civil action, or both (bring a criminal case and then use a conviction to found a civil action).

If there's a civil claim involved anywhere, the manufacturers/shop may have been included because the other parties may not have adequate insurance. There's no point suing someone that can't pay.

[abarro81]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it?

I'd thought so but googling makes me think I must have read that on a forum somewhere as speculation as I can't see it in the news reports.

Edit:

From what I have heard it was a non climbing mother that bought and assembled the quick draws and gave them to her daughter.

[ferret]

I'm pretty sure if you were acting in a professional capacity, and supplied somebody who you were responsible for, with a piece of incorrectly assembled equipment, which then failed resulting in their death you could (and should) face man slaughter charges in the UK.
The issue in this case of failure to control equipment introduced by a 3rd party is far more complicated and would probably depend on the wording of documents such as approved code of practice, company policies, contracts and waivers between the client and the provider.
Personally not surprised that there has been an investigation to establish if criminal negligence has occured.

[jwi]

Italian justice and law seems pretty skewed from over here.

That's what most people think about any legal system not their own... I think we have to learn to trust our neighbours law and legal enforcement.

Italian justice seems not worse than any other justice from where I'm standing. Too slow though.

[dave]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it? If the parent had both lent and assembled the draws you would think they would be on the charge list too

I thought I had read somewhere it was another kid who put the draws together. I could be wrong there, but that would add another level of legal complications.

And to think people used to knock those old DMM mamba draws.

[SA Chris]

Anyone know who the gear supplier is based in Lombardy? Intrigued to know and Google doesn't reveal much. Might be best to PM me if you know.

[dave]

Not sure chris, I guess it Could be Any nuMber of comPanies.....

[SA Chris]

I thought it was them that Could Always be iMPlicated.

Thanks

[dave]

careless assembly miffs parent?

[SA Chris]

careless assembly; manslaughter prodigy (or protege?)