[ian dunn]

News from France is that the young climbing sensation Tito Traversa has had an accident in Orpierre. Information is sketchy but he is in hospital in Grenoble fighting for his young life.

His videos were inspirational to young climbers and I for one wish him success with his fight and hope he makes a full recovery.

Latest news is: 'he was on a trip with a group of 10 kids and 3 adults from Italy. While he was climbing he
fell of 15 to 20meters. He was belayed from the ground by a person but they don’t
mention if he was toproping or lead climbing. Local police is still
investigating but at this point they talk about an equipment problem, a quickdraw
was apparently not used correctly. Like previously said he is in Grenoble
hospital and fighting for his life.'

My best wishes are with him and his family.

[flyguy]

Really bad shocking news. It's reported on 8a that he died today. Too young.

[Kingy]

Very sad news, RIP

[Oldmanmatt]

Shit.

His family must be suffering.
 

RIP.

[Grubes]

Such sad news

[Doylo]

Totally grim news

[Nibile]

What horrible news. Poor boy. They donated his organs, he helped someone else luckier than him.
Ciao Tito.

[chummer]

Absolutely awful news, very sobering indeed. Lord only knows how his friends and family are feeling.

[Jaspersharpe]

Grim and terribly sad.

[iain]

That's so sad, his poor family.

If the reports are right got to spare a thought for whoever did the quickdraws as well, they'll be suffering too.

[Oldmanmatt]

Yep, and the belayer. Which, given the child/adult ratio of the group; was likely a kid as well...

[Luke Owens]

Truly tragic, RIP.

[shark]

http://eveningsends.com/2013/07/tito-traversa-death/

A review by Andrew Bisharat

[Moo]

Gotta say I disagree with mr bisharat there. Incidents like this will happen in the future but less frequently of we review our safety and the people made responsible for it.

[shark]

Gotta say I disagree with mr bisharat there. Incidents like this will happen in the future but less frequently of we review our safety and the people made responsible for it.

Not sure what point you are trying to make Moo.

He does say : "If anything positive can come of Tito’s death, it is a reminder to also inspect our quickdraws—along with double-checking our knots, double-backed harnesses, locked belay biners, etc."

[T_B]

I don't agree with everything Bisharat says. I wonder whether fundamentally those who only sport climb have a different attitude and do not perceive the inherent risks in climbing in the same way as those who participate in other aspects of the sport? He says I don’t know anyone who has ever inspected a rack of quickdraws.. Seriously? You've never checked that your quickdraws, which get tons of abuse sport climbing, are starting to fray, or might have been cut against the rock? What about the karabiner that gets clipped into the bolt? Or does he not care which end goes in the bolt (and gets worn away, thus damaging the rope). Ironically, you are always 'testing' your gear sport climbing - lowering off, falling off, whereas trad climbing you often don't weight anything.

This accident is completely heartbreaking to read about and I cannot imagine what those close to Tito must be going through (especially his Dad). Of course, it could have happened to any of us, but it's not a freak accident just in the same way as the various lowering off/not re-tying knots properly accidents are not 'freak' accidents. They happen because we get distracted or forget to do something. I do think there is a bit of an 'issue' with the attitude we sometimes bring to sport crags (a bit too bl*ody relaxed at times). I don't really know what the answer is, but we could start by not distracting belayers by talking to them when they are belaying. And even wearing a helmet at some of our limestone crags (leading or belaying) which are not entirely solid.

[shark]

I don't agree with everything Bisharat says. I wonder whether fundamentally those who only sport climb have a different attitude and do not perceive the inherent risks in climbing in the same way as those who participate in other aspects of the sport? He says I don’t know anyone who has ever inspected a rack of quickdraws.. Seriously? You've never checked that your quickdraws, which get tons of abuse sport climbing, are starting to fray, or might have been cut against the rock? What about the karabiner that gets clipped into the bolt? Or does he not care which end goes in the bolt (and gets worn away, thus damaging the rope). Ironically, you are always 'testing' your gear sport climbing - lowering off, falling off, whereas trad climbing you often don't weight anything.

This accident is completely heartbreaking to read about and I cannot imagine what those close to Tito must be going through (especially his Dad). Of course, it could have happened to any of us, but it's not a freak accident just in the same way as the various lowering off/not re-tying knots properly accidents are not 'freak' accidents. They happen because we get distracted or forget to do something. I do think there is a bit of an 'issue' with the attitude we sometimes bring to sport crags (a bit too bl*ody relaxed at times). I don't really know what the answer is, but we could start by not distracting belayers by talking to them when they are belaying. And even wearing a helmet at some of our limestone crags (leading or belaying) which are not entirely solid.

Good post Tom. I think the main point that he makes that the specific "lessons" from this tragedy are limited (unless it leads to the manufacture of rubber retainers being discontinued or the design altered?) is correct. But generally, yes, as you say sport climbing can make people too bloody relaxed. I was the only one of maybe 50 climbers at the Grande Grotte to wear a helmet even though the evidence was obvious that tufas get pulled off on a regular basis. Another common one is climbers decking out when lowered off with a rope that turns out to be too short. I would like to think I would notice at some point that someone's draws were set up wrong if I was handed them and placed them all the way up a route but who knows - the below photo is far from obvious that its is a disaster in the making. When handed quickdraws you don't view them at eye level and often just clip them automatically to your harness without looking.

[tommytwotone]

Having read this (and seen the related video on UKC about the possibility of this happening to these types of quickdraws), I have to wonder about the cost/benefit of these spinning-krab-prevention rubber ring things.

I don't really climb much sport so can't comment on how big a problem this is when on a crucial redpoint but I'd certainly accept a potentially spinning krab on a draw over the potential for it getting tangled up, me not notice and a fatal accident happen.

[abarro81]

Having read this (and seen the related video on UKC about the possibility of this happening to these types of quickdraws), I have to wonder about the cost/benefit of these spinning-krab-prevention rubber ring things.

What the UKC video shows can't happen with the draw in the picture Simon posted, or any beefy draws, so once set up correctly they can't screw themselves up. All my thick draws have a petzl style rubber thing holding the lower krab and I have no intention of changing that. When I used to climb trad I had some sling-draws set up with rubber bits holding one krab, but after being told about the thing shown in the ukc vid I changed them all back to being loose, as I thought it was too feasible that I would fuck something up whilst fumbling, pumped and scared.

[Lund]

over the potential for it getting tangled up, me not notice and a fatal accident happen

Do we have any figures on how many accidents quickdraws getting tangled up cause?  When compared to the hours of use, do they indicate a significant accident rate?  I doubt it.  And don't give me "one or two is too many", as we don't ban horse riding, motorcycle riding, bike riding, eating peanut butter, or whatever - and all those have a measurable death risk.

More to the point, you say "tangled up".  Sorry, don't buy that immediately in this case.

TNB says: "Traversa climbed the pitch and placed 12 draws on the route. However, when he weighted the top draw, it failed as did the seven draws below that one."

There's some assumption that the other four were fine.  So we have 8 out of 12, 66%, being "tangled up".  The chance of these things actually getting "tangled up" is, to my mind, tiny.  I have unsewn quickdraws with a rubber band on.  They've never got tangled up, or not so I've noticed.

Given the tiny probability that loads of quickdraws got tangled up, to my mind this isn't the first thought.  So I suspect that the quickdraws were incorrectly slung, rather than accidentally tangled up.  In that case it's human error not fate or tangling or a design flaw.

This is all very sad.  But who slung the quickdraws that ended up with a 12 year old dying?

[slackline]

So I suspect that the quickdraws were incorrectly slung, rather than accidentally tangled up.  In that case it's human error not fate or tangling or a design flaw.

The various reports have pictures that are suggesting how they were slung (shark has posted one below, they are on many other reports too).

Your suspicion is correct.

[shark]

Lund,

There are two issues confused here relating to rubber retainers.

One is sport quickdraws with the rubber retainer set up wrongly as in the picture in my post.

The other relates to trad type quickdraws with a rubber band that are featured in a UKC video which has nothing to do with the Tito tragedy but is nonetheless useful viewing and can be found

[tommytwotone]

Sorry - yes, I have introduced a bit of confusion here.

The Tito thing sounds (to me at least) like someone's taken a bag of separate krabs, dyneema quick draw things and rubber retainer rings and they've been assembled incorrectly, resulting in quickdraws that look like the picture Shark posts above where the only thing holding one of the krabs on is the rubber retainer.

What I was getting at was the issue of "tangling up" that's demonstrated in the UKC vid.

I think my point was that for both of these, the benefits of the rubber ring are outweighted by the potential for human error / not checking and a resultant dangerous quickdraw setup.

[krymson]

i dont want to be rude to anyone but while the trad draw elastic mixup shown in the video is understandable, i am absolutely in disbelief that any sport climber could mess up the elastic band installation with proper dogbones.

[mrjonathanr]

My condolences to all those involved in some way.

[ian dunn]

From what I have heard it was a non climbing mother that bought and assembled the quick draws and gave them to her daughter. Tito was climbing with the daughter and picked up the 'new' quick draws and lead the route with them. 8 out of 12 were assembled incorrectly and unfortunately he used the correctly assembled ones at the bottom of the route.

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness. I would like to think that I might have spotted something out of the ordinary but i cannot honestly say I would have picked up the situation particularly if as shown in some of the videos it was just clipped into the dogbone / string and not through the tape, and so partially hidden.

As someone who has introduced lots of young climbers to outdoor sport climbing and helped those that wanted to, push themselves to climb hard routes I can only reiterate that as coaches / instructors it is vital that we check, check and check again. If anything can be learned from this terrible tragedy then it is we need to check quick draws as well as knots and belay devices. In gyms most often the quick draws are in-situ and we need to consider this when looking at the transition from indoors to outdoors, especially now as most climbers first experiences are in the indoor environment unlike when I started climbing where we started outside.

I cannot imagine the pain and heart ache the person who set the quick draws up or the instructors are going through and I can honestly say there for the grace of god go I, and a lot of other instructors too.

My sincere condolences to Tito's family and friends and can the climbing world learn a lesson from this unfortunate avoidable accident.

[Muenchener]

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness.

Understandable, yes. Nevertheless I would argue that it's not completely unreasonable, and quite possibly the major Lesson Learned from this high profile incident, to ask that the instructors / responsible adults should personally check all gear being used by a group of kids.

[slackline]

The adults / instructors supervising had not picked up the fact that the quick draws were incorrectly assembled. From the instructors point of view; you look across and see a young climber who has just done his 4th 8b+ gearing up to warm up on a 6b, you check the knot he has tied in with, check his belayer has set up correctly, but can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness.

Understandable, yes. Nevertheless I would argue that it's not completely unreasonable, and quite possibly the major Lesson Learned from this high profile incident, to ask that the instructors / responsible adults should personally check all gear being used by a group of kids.

Not sure if you finished reading the post, but there is no need to "argue" as you both seem to be in agreement...

I can only reiterate that as coaches / instructors it is vital that we check, check and check again. If anything can be learned from this terrible tragedy then it is we need to check quick draws as well as knots and belay devices.

[ghisino]

can you honestly say that you would have checked all 12 of the 'new' quick draws he had put on his harness

it depends.

in france (were i work as an instructor) the law "de facto" requires you to use your own gear (or your gym's), and that such gear has a referenced history (some register with date of purchase, yearly check report, instructions, serial numbers, etc)

in a similar accident to tito's thinstructor would be legally responsible for allowing gear that did not meet the above requirements.

[slackline]

Manslaughter Charges Filed

[abarro81]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

[dave]

Seems bollocks to me, going after the shop and manufacturer. Its now the shop's job to stop you doing something stupid. Do they sue Fiat every time someone does a hit and run?

Now asking questions of any adults in a position of having a duty of care within that group, (i.e. instructors, parents/guardians) that seems legit.

[kelvin]

... just really sad. Was gonna put my thoughts but it all seems a little irrelevant still compared to the kid dying.

Italian justice and law seems pretty skewed from over here.

[andyd]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

Nope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model
Stage 2?

[SA Chris]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

I feel very uncomfortable.

[Oldmanmatt]

Is it just me that feels slightly uncomfortable about that?

Nope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model
Stage 2?

+1

It's not that there should be no repercussions.

Something was wrong with the supervision, possibly blasé due to over familiarity, and somewhere along the line it was forgotten that kids are not able to take full responsibility for themselves and others.

But Manslaughter?

Nuts!

Idiotic, self-righteous, headline grabbing, drama queen histrionics; laced with grief driven desire for vengeance.

Heartbroken parents, desperate for someone to blame (other than themselves), mixed with politics.

Prepare for new, crushing, legislation; that will destroy half the outdoor education industry and drive up insurance premiums...

Because, this is likely to resonate up to a European level and it seems there is no such thing as an ACCIDENT anymore.
(After all, all accidents could have been prevented at some point before they occurred. For instance, if the shop owner who supplied the draws, had not been born, then he couldn't have sold them! So clearly it must be his parents fault! Malice afore-thought, surely!)

[Wood FT]

Any legal boffs - Can something that has happened in Europe set a legal precedent over here?

p.s well said Matt, couldn't get the wording right myself.

[shark]

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

"The manager of the club that organized the trip and two instructors that were on site are charged for failing to control the correct assembly of the equipment"


This implies one of the kids assembled the draws 

[abarro81]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

[shark]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it? If the parent had both lent and assembled the draws you would think they would be on the charge list too

[Ru]

Any legal boffs - Can something that has happened in Europe set a legal precedent over here?

I think the charges (if that's what they are) have been brought under Italian law, which won't set any legal precedents here.

I'm unsure if these are criminal charges or the start of a civil action, or both (bring a criminal case and then use a conviction to found a civil action).

If there's a civil claim involved anywhere, the manufacturers/shop may have been included because the other parties may not have adequate insurance. There's no point suing someone that can't pay.

[abarro81]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it?

I'd thought so but googling makes me think I must have read that on a forum somewhere as speculation as I can't see it in the news reports.

Edit:

From what I have heard it was a non climbing mother that bought and assembled the quick draws and gave them to her daughter.

[ferret]

I'm pretty sure if you were acting in a professional capacity, and supplied somebody who you were responsible for, with a piece of incorrectly assembled equipment, which then failed resulting in their death you could (and should) face man slaughter charges in the UK.
The issue in this case of failure to control equipment introduced by a 3rd party is far more complicated and would probably depend on the wording of documents such as approved code of practice, company policies, contracts and waivers between the client and the provider.
Personally not surprised that there has been an investigation to establish if criminal negligence has occured.

[jwi]

Italian justice and law seems pretty skewed from over here.

That's what most people think about any legal system not their own... I think we have to learn to trust our neighbours law and legal enforcement.

Italian justice seems not worse than any other justice from where I'm standing. Too slow though.

[dave]

I thought it had already been concluded that the parents of one of the other kids (the 6th person mentioned at the end of the dpm link) assembled the draws.

Had it? If the parent had both lent and assembled the draws you would think they would be on the charge list too

I thought I had read somewhere it was another kid who put the draws together. I could be wrong there, but that would add another level of legal complications.

And to think people used to knock those old DMM mamba draws.

[SA Chris]

Anyone know who the gear supplier is based in Lombardy? Intrigued to know and Google doesn't reveal much. Might be best to PM me if you know.

[dave]

Not sure chris, I guess it Could be Any nuMber of comPanies.....

[SA Chris]

I thought it was them that Could Always be iMPlicated.

Thanks

[dave]

careless assembly miffs parent?

[SA Chris]

careless assembly; manslaughter prodigy (or protege?)

[Dave Flanagan]

Not the thread for it lads?

[SA Chris]

Probably not, sorry.

[Nibile]

What happened to Tito, for the Italian law, is an "omicidio colposo". That is, someone killed someone else without intention of killing, but because of negligence, imprudence, inexperience. Manslaughter.
In this case, it seems that there could be the inexperience of the person who assembled the draws incorrectly, and the neglicence of the adults who were there. The so called "culpa in vigilando".
It's useful to say that for the Italian law, both civil and penal, those under 14 years of age are presumed as incapable (incompetent?), so that even their expressed agreement towards a subject, has no legal relevance.
Classic example: if a 16 years old guy makes love with a 13 years old girl, with her agreement, by law it's a rape.
Even if Tito was very experienced, by the law he needed an adult's control.
Crimes against life, in Italy, are prosecuted as a matter of fact (is this the right term?), that is, without the need of any private action. Just because they happened. It's the superior statal interest to prosecute them.
So, the penal action, once it came out that there had been some kind of external responsibility, had to be started by law. It would have been different if Tito had assembled the draws personally.
What can or cannot be present, is the "civil action" in the penal trial. The victim - or his relatives - wants an economic compensation for the damage.
So, prosecuting all the people - from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the assembler, to the instructors - is due because at various levels each one of these persons were involved, at some stage, in the event.
At the moment, this means nothing for them in terms of guilt. Formally prosecuting them is a warrancy, because so they know they are being prosecuted and they can prepare their defenses. 
After the initial investigations, the prosecutor will evaluate which ones of those people, need to be formally prosecuted in Court, and which ones have clearly no responsibility.
I hope this helps.

[SA Chris]

Great knowledge, thanks.

[hongkongstuey]

Italian law intrigues and baffles me, Berlusconi seems to ultimately get away with most things he wants but scientists get prosecuted for failing to accurately predict earthquakes...  As someone who frequently works with geohazard assessment, its one place in the world i'd never work...

[Nibile]

Berlusconi pays.

[Jaspersharpe]

My wife lived in Italy for a while and said the level of corruption and confusion at even a basic level of trying to get stuff done (utilities etc) was a nightmare but when you look at the (generally) hidden corruption here I'm not entirely sure which way is better.

At least it's out in the open there and nobody's kidding themselves that they live in a fair and just society. Our "envy of the World" British justice system still only works if you have enough money and aren't unlucky enough get on the wrong side of the filth / CPS / some big company or organisation.

Doesn't help the likes of those scientists or Amanda Knox but Ian Tomlinson, Paul Chambers, John Charles de Menezes, Simon Singh etc.

And is Burlusconi actually any worse than our lot who pretend to be doing what's right for the country while actually doing the bidding of those who've paid for them to get where they are? At least he paid for it himself and made no bones about the fact.

 

[Jaspersharpe]

And sorry, this probably isn't the place for such a discussion. Completely forgot which thread I was posting on after reading Stuey's post.

[slackline]

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/coaching-instructing-and-the-law