[Luke Owens]

Apologies for the long post and also if a similar question has been asked before but I couldn't find anything on the search. I guess this is a bit specific.

I'm trying to identify a weakness I have and I'm wondering what to do training wise to solve it - Any help would be great!

I'm originally and still am very much a sport climber. I've spent the majority of my 2 and a half years climbing crimping on vertical/slabby limestone routes. The last 2 winters I've bouldered indoors and I'm able to usually get a vertical/slightly steep Font 6B+/6C sent in a session.

I'm bouldering more lately but I'm not as interested in trying stuff that suites my style. I'm good with my feet and usually use technique to get around not being strong. Where my mates will just lock something out or throw for the hold I'm usually using the intermediate shit crimp with some gnarly heel beta...

Small holds I'm fine with but it's when things go all steep on me I'm completely shut down.

The main place I get acquainted with this weakness is Parisella's. I've been there maybe 4 times now and every time I go, it never gets easier. Every problem I've tried feels like the living end. To give you an idea of the moves I'm rubbish at I tried Parisella's Original yesterday, first problem in this video:



The first couple of holds can only be described as massive jugs. I can't seem to get anywhere near doing the 2nd move in, it's sort of a lock off with the left arm crossing over to a smaller hold with the right hand.

Any sort of moves like this I just can't seem to manage so I'm trying to figure out what it is I need to train.

A lot of you will probably say "Just train on the problem you want to do" but I can't afford time wise and petrol wise to travel to Parisella's all the time nor can I afford the climbing wall right now.

At home I have a pull up bar, Beastmaker 2000 and a 20mm campus rung underneath it.

So the question is, what is this weakness?

Lock-off strength?
Core strength?

I'm not after an overnight miracle just some advice to point me in the right direction.

Cheers!

[Ally Smith]

For a start, the cave is fairly brutal to new acquaintances. Secondly, you've said it yourself, you've been avoiding steep things and sport climbing on mainly vertical/slabby things which might give you the impression of finger strength, but actually you've been putting a lot of weight through your feet?

So as you've identified, your issue might be finger strength, or it might be your core/the little stabilising muscles in your shoulder, or most likely of all, you're just not used to steep bouldering and haven't got the movement patterns wired.

Is there anywhere else more local to you that you can get out and get some mileage on easier steep bouldering? Pantymwyn?

[Luke Owens]

I definitely transfer alot of weight through the feet. As soon as the weight goes more on my arms I feel the foot placements become useless and basically feel as though my legs/feet are dropping out from the overhang.

This would seem to be a core thing but I feel as though I have a strong core especially on balancey technical moves on the not so steep ground but it's the specifics of steep stuff I'm guessing work different muscles of the core, the lower back?

What part of the shoulders would need strengthening in relation to steep ground?

Any advice on what I could do at home to help improve this style overall using the fingerboard/pull-up bar?

Pantymwyn is probably the best bet locally but even that feels very hard. I've tried the 7A Firestarter on and off over the last year and never really made progress on it. Same reasons as above really, feet just drop off when going for steep moves.

Cheers

[Davo]

Hi

To be honest I can only really echo what Ally has said.

If you have spent most of your time on vertical crimpy sport routes then fairly obviously you are not going to be great in the cave.

At a guess it is a combination of arm, shoulder and back weakness which is easily sorted by bouldering on steep stuff and doing some lock off training on a bar. Potentially a bit of campusing would help.

It is also possible that it is finger strength weakness - in which case a bit of deadhanging on could help. Possibly some one arm deadhanging on ,edium sized holds on the beast maker?

Also like Ally said it can be fairly unforgiving at the cave but it does reward a persistent approach (in other words you have to go back quite a bit).

Hope some of that helps

Dave

[Doylo]

It's worth pointing out that a lot of good climbers also struggle with the Cave on their first visit as it's so beta intensive.  That punter Megos only climbed 8a  . I think you just need to bite the bullet and do more steep bouldering despite how demoralising it may feel to begin with.

[cheque]

I definitely transfer a lot of weight through the feet. As soon as the weight goes more on my arms I feel the foot placements become useless and basically feel as though my legs/feet are dropping out from the overhang.

I used to have this exact same problem you describe 'til I started deadlifting- it seems to make your lower back stronger really quickly which lets you get that push through your feet to create the tension. I imagine you're aware that there's an epic thread on deadlifting on here.

 

[krymson]

I think you're probably a far better vertical/slab climber than me but i spend 90% of my time climbing steep stuff so i feel i can offer some advice

There at least two main aspects feet wise to work on which are related - Pulling with the feet(technique) and Core strength, which will help you pull with your feet more effectively.

Physically, I saw your "core" program and it is far from anything that would help with steep climbing.  the intensity and the specificty is simply not there.

With steep climbing you are trying to generate body tension through the whole body so that you can not only keep those feet on, but really use them.

If you only have a pullup bar you can do front lever progressions for base strength.

If you have access to monkey bars there are some great lock-off/body tension exercises you can do there which can directly help your body tension-- i've been meaning to make a video about this...

What part of the shoulders would need strengthening in relation to steep ground?

Any advice on what I could do at home to help improve this style overall using the fingerboard/pull-up bar?

I'm less of an expert in this regard(my shoudlers are strong, never had them be a bottleneck yet) but i believe Wide grip pullups would help a bit in terms of what you can do with the equipment you have.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks guys, some stuff to think about there.

I used to have this exact same problem you describe 'til I started deadlifting- it seems to make your lower back stronger really quickly which lets you get that push through your feet to create the tension. I imagine you're aware that there's an epic thread on deadlifting on here. 

Yeah, I've seen the thread, will have a proper read of it now. I don't have access to a lot of weights though. I have two dumbbells with enough weights for about 17kg each dumbbell but I know this isn't enough weight for substantial deadlifiting.

Physically, I saw your "core" program and it is far from anything that would help with steep climbing.  the intensity and the specificty is simply not there.

Would you say none of the core exercises I've been doing would be benficial? I keep the intensity pretty high and it takes about half an hour to complete with two 3 minute rests.

Can you recommend some more specific core exercises I could do at home?

By pulling with the feet do you mean creating downward force through body tension? I can see why levers would help with this but i'm so far off being able to do one. I'll work on some progression techniques for this.

Cheers

[Gritlad]

I would agree with the others that the cave is pretty unique, takes a while to get used to but then it kind of clicks.
Watch videos for beta, I dont think you need to do that cross through move for parisellas original or the clever/cleaver one however I found i had to do the cross over move to do lip service.
 My body tension is really awful but I still get on well with the cave.
Keep on going there when you can and try to go when it's good conditions in there, when its warm in there its horrible.

[tomtom]

It's worth pointing out that a lot of good climbers also struggle with the Cave on their first visit as it's so beta intensive.  That punter Megos only climbed 8a  . I think you just need to bite the bullet and do more steep bouldering despite how demoralising it may feel to begin with.

+1

I'm shit and the cave has always spanked me - though less so with more frequent visits! I think you just have to climb there more to get 'into' whatever 'it' is for that place... For me, I found it hard open handing large holds/edges that had no friction! I was used to either crimping something small and sharp, or open handing something grippy and slopey...

[abarro81]

I'm good with my feet and usually use technique to get around not being strong. Where my mates will just lock something out or throw for the hold I'm usually using the intermediate shit crimp with some gnarly heel beta...

One thing worth noting: 'technique' is not something which only applies to vert, nor is using the gnarly heel static beta always 'better' technique than 'just throwing' for a hold. Chances are your technique for vert stuff is pretty good, but if you're not used to climbing steep stuff then your technique for it is probably pretty poor. The timings, the movements, the body positions are all different. Good with your feet on vert doesn't mean you'll be good with your feet when it comes to pulling into holds on a roof, toe hooks etc. Watching Steve Mac in Santa Linya compared to how Bolger, Sharma etc climb it there it seemed to me that whilst he no doubt has immaculate technique for vert/slabby gnarl or malham trickery, the overtly 'less technical' flicking employed by those more at home on 50 degree ground was actually the better technique in that arena. If you watch videos of Andrada's spinny, campusy style - initially it often looks like 'poor' technique, but actually there's often a lot of tricky momentum going on behind the scenes.

I have no advice to give on exercises to do at home, other than the usual shit for getting stronger fingers, arms and core. The real advice is: build a steep board, go bouldering on steep stuff more, or move nearer to a wall...

[Luke Owens]

One thing worth noting: 'technique' is not something which only applies to vert, nor is using the gnarly heel static beta always 'better' technique than 'just throwing' for a hold. Chances are your technique for vert stuff is pretty good, but if you're not used to climbing steep stuff then your technique for it is probably pretty poor. The timings, the movements, the body positions are all different. Good with your feet on vert doesn't mean you'll be good with your feet when it comes to pulling into holds on a roof, toe hooks etc. Watching Steve Mac in Santa Linya compared to how Bolger, Sharma etc climb it there it seemed to me that whilst he no doubt has immaculate technique for vert/slabby gnarl or malham trickery, the overtly 'less technical' flicking employed by those more at home on 50 degree ground was actually the better technique in that arena. If you watch videos of Andrada's spinny, campusy style - initially it often looks like 'poor' technique, but actually there's often a lot of tricky momentum going on behind the scenes.

I have no advice to give on exercises to do at home, other than the usual shit for getting stronger fingers, arms and core. The real advice is: build a steep board, go bouldering on steep stuff more, or move nearer to a wall...

Cheers Alex,

I kinda figured after my inital post that just because my technique on what i'm used to is good doesn't mean it'll transfer over as you say.

Think experiance on the steep stuff will sort me out. It's hard to feel like you're starting from the beginning with something but it should pay off!

Before I posted I think I expected too much of my already gained experiance on non-steep rock would transfer to something i'm not used to.

Massive head room for improvement on it though I guess!

[Nibile]

My 2 cents. Core doesn't involve just the lower back and legs, it involves the whole body. It means being able to be strong from the fingers on the hold, to the toes on the footholds, so a strong upper torso, and strong shoulders are a must have.
Also, on overhangs the push from the feet in my opinion must be more progressive, otherwise with a sudden, quick push you'll get very high but you can cut loose.
This is something I trained by avoiding the classic feet-follow-hands kind of gym setting, and by setting my own problems, using poor feet and choosing holds on which a cut loose meant a fall.

[abarro81]

Yeah, it'll come quick if you're not used to it though, should soften any ego battering! Just try to do as much steep climbing as possible to learn as many movements as possible. Trying those problems with people who are better in that style would be good too - you can often learn a lot about a style from climbing with someone who's used to it.

[krymson]

I expected too much of my already gained experiance on non-steep rock would transfer to something i'm not used to.

Massive head room for improvement on it though I guess!

They're really different! I find that on vertical climbing there is things you can do that would be completely unfathomable on steep ground. entirely different head game, motor skills, route reading...

The good news is that steep stuff is less technical - usually there is a lot less possible moves than in vertical or slab so its quick to learn and once you get the fitness part and the basic movements wired you'll be crushing.

With the core intensity you are not aiming for an endurance exercise or aerobic workout but more for muscular hypertrophy which means 4-12 reps at most, so instead of 30 crunches do 4 leg lifts or a few upside down crunches. instead of 15 side planks do some windshield wipers or hanging side leg raise, etc. You are not trying to work up a sweat, you are looking to get DOMS in the affected muscles on the next day.

The kind of intensity and sports specificity to aim for is demonstrated in sean mccoll's training video from last year.


Put it another way being able to do a single leg front lever will be much more useful than crunches till your blue in the face.

[Dexter]

My 2 cents. Core doesn't involve just the lower back and legs, it involves the whole body. It means being able to be strong from the fingers on the hold, to the toes on the footholds, so a strong upper torso, and strong shoulders are a must have.
Also, on overhangs the push from the feet in my opinion must be more progressive, otherwise with a sudden, quick push you'll get very high but you can cut loose.
This is something I trained by avoiding the classic feet-follow-hands kind of gym setting, and by setting my own problems, using poor feet and choosing holds on which a cut loose meant a fall.

although I'd say don't forget that cutting loose is sometimes necessay and as such being able to deal with it well helps. In addition to this one thing I've found to help with shoulder/back strength is to train front on style of climbing such as this it helps for lock style moves of steep ground where fancy footwork isn't always an option.

[abarro81]

The good news is that steep stuff is less technical - usually there is a lot less possible moves than in vertical or slab so its quick to learn and once you get the fitness part and the basic movements wired you'll be crushing.

Not convinced about that. I reckon I do a much wider variety of moves on steep ground than on vert/slab. Maybe that's just 'cos I'm shit at slabs though! There's usually more opportunity to exploit cunning use of knee bars/scums, heel hooks, toe hooks, extreme drop knees, foot-first shenanigans etc. on steep ground, if only because it tends to be more featured at an equivalent grade, giving more opportunity for funky tricks. Also on the 'less technical' thing - stuff like tricky heel hooks are often just as technically challenging as standing on bad feet on a slab (take it from someone who's shit at both of them).

[Doylo]

Agree with the lanky cheat. Climbing on steep stuff can still be as technical as vert/ slabs but in a different way. When you see masters of steepness in action you realise this.

[krymson]

Yes i know what you guys mean. that was poorly worded and i feel bad 

I guess i just am used to the steep stuff more so those moves seem fairly straightforward to me. It's certainly easier to read imo. 

[moose]

I suspect beta / unfamiliarity are the largest part of your problems but another factor might be dynamism. 

I had similar experiences to you when I went to the Bowderstone (and the Cave on a handful of trips).  I was a pitifully weak lover of tiny crimps and came badly unstuck when I tried to apply my natural climbing style, much admired by the three-toed sloth.  What little success I ever managed was only after months of going to steep indoor bouldering walls and forcing myself to throw between holds more.  By all means get all the heelhook beta going, but once your feet are in right, hurl for the next hold and don't try to static it out - move quick before you sag.

Sadly, after a year or two to Malham, that ability to grip'n'go has disappeared.  I now spend my time searching for routes with guidebook descriptions that feature words like "painful", "reachy", and "crozzle".

[Jaspersharpe]

Good advice all round but I'd also say that as you've only been climbing two and a half years, don't worry.

It's much better to get good at climbing first and then get strong and a lot of people get it the wrong way round these days and never recover.

Go to your local climbing wall and watch for evidence of this. I was dismayed by several displays of such at The Works yesterday and especially an over strong zero technique tit attempting to dish out advice to beginners/girlfriends/mates who could already use their feet better than the supposed expert.

Do loads of pull ups etc on the fingerboard and you'll be fine.

[mrjonathanr]

I think Moose makes an excellent point about the timing of movements, it makes all the difference, IS technique and requires climbing and trying lots to refine. I wouldn't stress, just keep climbing, things will come.

[SEDur]

I know you said you cannot afford the indoor walls at the moment, but this:http://www.onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/old-school-drills-foot-off-bouldering.html
may hold a little insight into an exercise which might help you. Maybe a Tom Randall style basement job would be a way to go, practising that dreaded backwards feeling.

Waffle:
_{I have been spending more time (since recovering from injury) climbing on steep stuff lately the anything slaby, now that limestone season is upon us (and I don't have to stick to Nuda's T). Watching the wads up at Rubicon et al has shown me that strength and good, accurate dynamic movement can work wonders. It is true what Macleod says (and everyone else for that matter), that there is a completely different knack for very steep and roof climbing; the best way to get good at it will be to do it, because it will be a new set of skills (and information) that your mind (conscious and subconscious) needs to get used to.}

[moose]

Watching the wads up at Rubicon et al has shown me that strength and good, accurate dynamic movement can work wonders.

I had the same revelation there.  When I fist saw the Kudos Wall, my heart leapt with joy: a leaning wall covered in tiny crimps! I came away very disconsolate. It took me a while to realise that the key technique was to paste on a high smear, really push through with the foot, and make a controlled lunge for the next hold.  Trying to get both feet sorted to find a static position to reach from would have required far more ability than the grade of any of the problems I was trying.  It might look brutal but it is technique - mastery of timing.

[Luke Owens]

Thanks everyone, some great advice and stuff to work on!

When I do end up at the wall now I'll definitely dedicate time to the steep stuff.

I know you said you cannot afford the indoor walls at the moment, but this:http://www.onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/old-school-drills-foot-off-bouldering.html

The Macleod link is great, thanks!

As some of you have said about lacking to move dynamically, I definitely have this problem when it's steep I just can't get the timing right. When I'm throwing for a hold I can't seem to time it right with locking off the other arm and engaging the core. Just need more practice with this.

I tried to come up with some exercises at home last night that would help me a bit including some obvious ones.

_{Deadhangs on Slopers, Open handed Front 3, Back 3, Middle 2 and Half Crimp 4 fingers.
Pull-ups on a 30mm edge half crimped
Pull up bar - Wide grip and close grip pull ups and pull ups with legs raised (killer on my lower back!)
Holding a static position on a 20mm edge with feet on a chair as far as possible behind the fingerboard - Had to fight the urge to sag, felt like an extreme plank!
Holding one arm lock offs with feet on a chair stretched out behind the board}

Whether any of these will help with what I'm trying to achieve, I don't know (I'm sure the deadhangs will do something), but it's better than sitting on the sofa!