[krymson]

Just curious if folks hang 3 and 2 fingers half crimped, or if you guys switch over to open handed dragging for those.

I'm thinking
3 fingers - good to work both positions, especially for front 3.

2 fingers - for non-wads probably just open hand. Too much chance for injury doing half crimp with only two fingers to stabilize.

[krymson]

nice. Back 3 do you crimp the pinky? I guess this is a bit finger length dependent.

Recently have been finding the "half crimp" more nuanced than it first appears.
Hyperextending(half crimp)  all involved fingers should in theory provide best support and train things the best, but because of factors such as finger lengths and the shape of what you're holding onto,  may not always be possible or ideal.

[Nibile]

On the BM I do both, half crimp and drag.
Back3, top rung, half crimp. One armed.
Front3, right eye, drag. One armed.
Front3, lower rung, full crimp (no thumb). Two arms.
Front2, small pocket, full/half crimp (no thumb). Two arms.
Mid2, small pocket, half crimp/drag. Two arms.
Back2, mid pocket, half crimp. Two arms.

I find it difficult to fully load my pinky even when back2-ing, due to relative length with ring finger. I hope this helps (both you and me!).

[krymson]

Back2, mid pocket, half crimp. Two arms.

 

beastly.

[Nibile]

Back2, mid pocket, half crimp. Two arms.

 

beastly.

With 10 kg, that is.
 
Thanks krymson. It just takes a lot of patience.
But thanks anyway.

[douglas]

Not a trick question: what are the benefits of dropping fingers over training with added weight?

[krymson]

Different number of fingers change the way you hold grips, and thus the way the fingers are trained.

1. Because fingers are different lengths, the fingers you use can greatly change the type of grip used.

Play around with a fingerboard and you will notice that your individual fingers will end up in different positions(dragging, half crimp, almost half crimp, etc.) depending on the hold and # of fingers used.

For instance its easy for me to purely drag front 3, but when I use all 4 fingers, trying to "drag" a small edge actually ends up with my front 3 doing a quarter crimp.

2. In a four finger grip, the index and pinky are stabilizing the hand and subject to more sideways forces.
When you start removing fingers, other fingers are subjected to them.

 This can be good for injury prevention and is also useful for training for pockets where you are not always pulling in a purely downwards direction.

[Nibile]

Hey Rich!
Mid pocket is n. 8
Small pocket is n. 12
Right eye is n. 15.
I think they call it this way.

[Nibile]

Not a trick question: what are the benefits of dropping fingers over training with added weight?

As said, it works the fingers in different ways. Also, at some point you start needing too add too much weight to really go at your limit. So, splitting fingers helps you train at max intensity without too much added weight (if any). If you think about it, using three instead of four is an immediate 25% more on each hand.

[douglas]

I have no problem training grip types to get specifically stong on certain holds but there are more possible combinations than there are hours in the day and in my mind training for long-term gains (ie all fingers/most common grip) by hanging significant mass from your waist seems like a better option?

[Nibile]

Hey Rich!

Had to think about that for a moment ...

Mid pocket is n. 8
Small pocket is n. 12
Right eye is n. 15.
I think they call it this way.

Wish I hadn't asked ... I am feeling like a weak punter again! So you don't bother with the special back2 pocket (7) for your back2 hangs?

I had to start from that one at the beginning, because my ring and pinky were/are very weak. Then I progressed to the mid ones and sometimes to the small ones. It took a while though.

[Nibile]

I have no problem training grip types to get specifically stong on certain holds but there are more possible combinations than there are hours in the day and in my mind training for long-term gains (ie all fingers/most common grip) by hanging significant mass from your waist seems like a better option?

Yes but if you use less fingers at a time you need less added weight, so it's easier to train and less traumatic for your body.

[douglas]

How does it work training front 3 and back 3 in a single session: middle 2 are taxed twice as much as index and little?

[rodma]

How does it work training front 3 and back 3 in a single session: middle 2 are taxed twice as much as index and little?

Making you either twice as beastly or twice as fucked

[krymson]

I have no problem training grip types to get specifically stong on certain holds but there are more possible combinations than there are hours in the day and in my mind training for long-term gains (ie all fingers/most common grip) by hanging significant mass from your waist seems like a better option?

Yeah i know what you mean, and CWP agrees with you.

Based on the principle that grip strength doesn't transfer well over joint angles, i feel like if you really want to minimalize things, 4 finger half crimp could be the steak n' potatoes, but you should also have a small but healthy side of dragging -- either  front 2 + back 2 or something else depending on your hand.

I guess in theory if you did enough open hand dragging in your regular climbing, you could strictly rely on 4 finger half crimp for training. I would just rather get my fingers ready to pull on pockets before i pull on them rather than find out the hard way that they werent up to the challenge.

[Nibile]

How does it work training front 3 and back 3 in a single session: middle 2 are taxed twice as much as index and little?

Yes, that's true. You can either split the hangs in two sessions, or take long rests.
One good thing is to always start from the weak arm/hang. In my case I start with left arm back3, then it's right arm back3, then left front3, then right front3.
I keep this rule for everything, so even when doing weights in the gym, or one armers.

On the matter of training on pockets, dragging, etc, I started training these prehensions more for a general fingers conditioning rather than for specific routes or problems (we don't have pockets here). It's important to have generally strong tendons in different fingers positions: for instance, latching an edge with just three fingers, dragging, can leave you with three options: you adjust and crimp; you drag and pull; you fall. Sometimes it's not possible to adjust and crimp, so that's why it's important to have strong tendons while dragging: you sack it and pull.
When dragging, pulleys aren't engaged - almost - at all and the finger is straight: this can easily lead to a feeling of over confidence and put an excessive stress on the tendon. I've had far more injuries from dragging than from crimping.
Hope this helps.

[Sasquatch]

On the matter of training on pockets, dragging, etc, I started training these prehensions more for a general fingers conditioning rather than for specific routes or problems (we don't have pockets here). It's important to have generally strong tendons in different fingers positions: for instance, latching an edge with just three fingers, dragging, can leave you with three options: you adjust and crimp; you drag and pull; you fall. Sometimes it's not possible to adjust and crimp, so that's why it's important to have strong tendons while dragging: you sack it and pull.
When dragging, pulleys aren't engaged - almost - at all and the finger is straight: this can easily lead to a feeling of over confidence and put an excessive stress on the tendon. I've had far more injuries from dragging than from crimping.
Hope this helps.

Another note on the pockets idea is that contrary to what most people would think, your fingers are stronger individually than the sum of their parts.   i.e. I can hang monos on all four sets of fingers, but I can't hold 4xBW on all 4 fingers(not even close).  This seems a bit odd until you look at the physiology of the hand and realize that as soon as your finger hits your palm, you have a series of interconnected tendons and muscles that attach that finger to the ones next to it. 

I'm sure someone else could explain this better, but what I've found is that by training pockets, you are training these little accessory muscles/tendons and building their strength as well.  That way if you do need them they can take the load.

[Nibile]

  i.e. I can hang monos on all four sets of fingers

Wow!
I'm very impressed!!! I am nowhere close to deadhang on my pinkies, and I think I am also a lot lighter than you!!!
Beast!

[Sasquatch]

Not on just 1 pinky , but the pairs....

[Nibile]

Yes, but then again I am nowhere close!

[douglas]

One joint?

Thinking about my climbing, I can't remember the last time I pulled on back 3.

[Sasquatch]

One joint?

Thinking about my climbing, I can't remember the last time I pulled on back 3.

One joint and I defo couldn't hang anything.  Too busy eating:)

I can't pinky off 1 joint, but can off 2 joints.  And I agree, It's pretty rare for me to pull on back three while climbing, but I have caught deadpoint type moves on back three many times before adjusting to front 3.

 

[andy_e]

One joint and I defo couldn't hang anything.  Too busy eating/giggling

[Duma]

yes, we got it thanks andy

[krymson]

So have been inspired by Nibile to try doing front 3 with a half crimp  and it's been a revelation.

Like I suspect many people will, I discovered my ring finger is much weaker crimping than my Front 2!

My theory is:

-When 4 finger grippin the pinky assists the ring finger -- more than a little bit!

-With 3 fingers there's nowhere to hide  - all 3 fingers get loaded about equally.

Not only does this imbalance hold me back - reducing how solid my crimps are, but when one finger is significantly weaker in a grip than some of the ones around it it's just asking for injury.

In fact this agrees exactly with what I've been finding recently - whenever my fingers feel tweaky it's always been the ring finger pulleys, and it's always after using 3 finger crimpers-- Even when those crimpers are significantly deeper than many 4 finger holds i pull on these days.