[Wood FT]

I find it a tad ironic we have loads of votes for 'whatever Pete likes' but very few for what Pete actually did like...

I think they are one and the same but 'whatever Pete likes' just covers the principle as well

[petejh]

Dodgy bolts?!  Tsk.. should get it re-equipped with glue-in 6'' nails. Stainless obviously.

[Johnny Brown]

It's worth pointing out (unless others think this is obvious) that this should still be considered a headpoint route as the old bolts are similar to the PS flake. They may well seem bomber, but take enough monster lobs and something will break eventually and then one of the best lines on grit will be wrecked (i.e. no one really wants to solo a slappy top end 8b). So please, can people not take a gung-ho GU approach. I know Pete thinks the same. Let's try and keep the present character of the route :-)

I understand where you are coming from here but this statement is rather in opposition to the entire development of climbing and mountaineering, and not to mention a tad presumptuous. Pete fell off didn't he?

Let's not try to rewrite history and suggest Parthian was broken by ground-up falls. It was broken by a headpointer. Many of the falls onto it were also by headpointers - not least Seb, or Dunne's sack of rocks. Whilst it might seem logical that the falls had weakened it, the argument is purely conjecture. It could equally have been a badly placed piece or poor choice of piece.

[Tommy]

I'm not suggesting PS was broken by GU'ers - just trying to draw parallels with how we view/viewed the protection on each route.

Anyway, all good points Adam and as ever it's important to look at the forward progression of climbing and mountaineering. Imagine telling one of the 90s boys that Braille Trail was a good flash proposition. They'd think you were mad! :-)

[Fiend]

I agree with JB's (possible) implication that after a couple of headpoint repeats to confirm the grade/quality, it should be left for people in the future to be super-strong / super-skilled enough to have a fair shot at onsighting it 

[SA Chris]

So is someone going to stand at the bottom of the route for evermore wielding a big staff and saying "you shalt not pass (unless you have a respectable CV with 10 or more routes of E7 or harder)".

[Bonjoy]

Imagine telling one of the 90s boys that Braille Trail was a good flash proposition. They'd think you were mad! :-)

True enough, but to be fair to 90's climbers on Brialle Trail what used to be a shoddy marginal placement is now a bomber cam slot by all accounts.
 

Fiend - I'm not sure JB was arguing that it should be considered off limits to head pointers, just that it shouldn't be considered off limits for ground uppers.
I think there are too many factors to take into account for blanket disapproval of one style or the other to be appropriate. For instance Adam Ondra is less likely to break the bolts on it than John Dunne, regardless of which way they attempted it. Should John Dunne be banned from trying it?

[Jaspersharpe]

Yes.

[Bonjoy]

  Should have seen that one coming

[SA Chris]

Dense, are you sure they are from the 80s? I'd have thought they would date from the 1960s or early 70s.

Someone from the other channel was saying 1969 (no idea of his source). Old as me then give or take a few months, and I'm pretty knackered.

[Grubes]

phil is a chew local he probably knows the person who put them in

[tomtom]

Dense, are you sure they are from the 80s? I'd have thought they would date from the 1960s or early 70s.

Someone from the other channel was saying 1969 (no idea of his source). Old as me then give or take a few months, and I'm pretty knackered.

If one were to clip onto and fall on your bolts would they come off? Or just stretch alot

[Nigel]

Imagine telling one of the 90s boys that Braille Trail was a good flash proposition. They'd think you were mad! :-)

True enough, but to be fair to 90's climbers on Brialle Trail what used to be a shoddy marginal placement is now a bomber cam slot by all accounts.
 

That's now true (I saw Michele Caminati get a Friend 1 in I think??!!), but in the context of Tommy's point when Adam flashed it it was a poor BD 000 cam in a flared sandy slot and didn't look like it would hold, so probably very similar to the 90's situation. Anyway, off topic.

Might as well make an on topic comment. This line is incredible, its brilliant that Pete has done it. I like all the shenanigans with the gear, and I like the name. Regarding the bolts and the headpoint / GU issue, seems rather academic! Steep French 8b climbing at Wimberry is very unlikely to get any ground up attention for a while surely!

[andy popp]

Imagine telling one of the 90s boys that Braille Trail was a good flash proposition. They'd think you were mad! :-)

True enough, but to be fair to 90's climbers on Brialle Trail what used to be a shoddy marginal placement is now a bomber cam slot by all accounts.
 

There was a bit more to the 90s than dodgy headpoints. But then, I would say that wouldn't I? 

[T_B]

I agree with JB's (possible) implication that after a couple of headpoint repeats to confirm the grade/quality, it should be left for people in the future to be super-strong / super-skilled enough to have a fair shot at onsighting it 

Maybe. The issue with this route is if the bolts break, there's no pro. At some point down the line the bolts will break, but it wouldn't be damaging to the rock. So the argument that first and foremost you should protect the rock sort of isn't relevant. You're just preserving the route 

I don't see it being an issue really. Anyone who was serious about trying it GU would be in the F8b on-sight league and familiar with high-end gritstone (i.e. el mocho, Ryan). Anyone headpointing it would not bother going on the sharp end until they thought they could do it!

[mrjonathanr]

There was a bit more to the 90s than dodgy headpoints. But then, I would say that wouldn't I? 

Was it dodgy hair-dos and tights?

[Johnny Brown]

Some good comments there. All I was trying to suggest was, as BJ guessed:

I think there are too many factors to take into account for blanket disapproval of one style or the other to be appropriate.

Carmen Picasso would probably be a more relevant route if you wanted to draw comparisons. You never know what talented youths are waiting in the wings, a point hammered home to me at Raven tor last night as I watched some youth rinse Mecca, whilst I hung on a bolt opening year five of my pointless siege of Body Machine...

[Bonjoy]

The issue with this route is if the bolts break, there's no pro.

Maybe, maybe not. What about these?



Extraction of the old bolts might be difficult/controversial obviously.

[Johnny Brown]

That had occurred to me too - we've got a box of reusable expansion bolts at work with rubber sleeves. I suspect though the old bolts will snap rather than leave a clean hole.

[Fiend]

Like for like replacement 

JB if you're using words like "rinse" instead of "send", you're probably well ahead of the youths of today 

[tomtom]

Like for like replacement 

JB if you're using words like "rinse" instead of "send", you're probably well ahead of the youths of today 

iOS typing error

[dave]

If the bolts broke leaving shafts in place the all you would need is a few quickdraws attached to fuckoff neodymium magnets. Dropping SCIENCE on yo ass.

[slackline]

Picture from Mike Hutton of Pete on Baron Greenback

[Wood FT]

It's been said before in this thread I think but that really does look reminiscent of Partheon Shot

[andy popp]

Perhaps. But still, I've always thought this an infinitely more impressive and inspiring piece of rock than Parthian.