[cjsheps]

In the past, my approach towards training strength has been to try the single hardest moves I can do (for example on absolute-limit boulder problems). However, after a few conversations with friends recently, and thinking about how  will barely ever do less than 3 reps (if the exercise isn't isometric) have left me questioning this philosophy.

Also, I've just been through a microcycle heavily weighted towards high-intensity strength endurance, and this seems to have resulted in bigger gains in finger strength (during a given time) than my previous strength training (max hangs under 10s, 1-3 moves at my limit). My theory is that this is due to a significantly higher volume of hard(ish) moves.

Does anyone have any opinions on the training value of the link of a problem etc? Thanks a lot UKB

[krymson]

Pure speculation but since no one else is answering, here goes:

In weight lifting 1 rep maxes aren't commonly done because it's hard to get the form right at your absolute limit. Poor form means the muscle doesn't get trained as well, and greatly increases risk of injury.

I feel like the arguments would be the same in climbing. It would probably be more beneficial to do multiple hard moves near your limit(perhaps failing 1-20% of the time) vs just one super hard one you can barely do if at all(maybe failing 30-50% of the time). Especially considering the importance of engrams and such.

[cjsheps]

Thanks a lot! 

[krymson]

How's it working out for you, CJ?

Not that this is very scientific but in the past week I've actually started following my own advice   and applying this principle of linking several moves instead of focusing on 1-2 hard moves.

So at the bouldering gym I would do problems with moves at 70% of my limit, which means when im on the wall i dont fall unless i do at least 2 or 3 hard moves.

This week I'm consistently stronger not just at Links, but also at individual hard moves., as in moves i actually did not practice last week because they were too hard (less than 30% probability of success)

To give some more data - besides that one bouldering session i just did route climbing until today, as well as one fingerboard session on saturday(which im sure helped as well), but the amount of gain i've had this week is pretty significant, and at least partly chalked up to working links instead of individual hard moves.

[shark]

Generally speaking if you focus on any one sort of training or climbing for too long you will plateau or get stale as the body will shrug off the stimulus so furthermore you are not able to increase the intensity. You might be able to extract further gains by upping the load through reduced rest or more reps but sometimes its just better to switch to something else to give the body a different sort of stimulus and unsurprisingly you start making gains.

[cjsheps]

It's been working really well! I'd been doing high-intensity strength endurance training for a while and tried a 45 board session yesterday. It's probably the strongest I've ever felt on that board, and hopefully this will translate to my climbing. However, in the long term some shorter repetitions will be necessary to top up that top end, almost neurological ability to pull off a hard move.

[krymson]

It's been almost two months since i've followed the philosophy of training bouldering strength through links of 2-5 hard moves  instead of repeatedly trying 1-2 limit moves which are lower percentage.

It's been mostly almost entirely positive and I've been steadily gaining strength and power.

Working links means in each session I'm working many many more moves, volume and time on the wall than if i work individual moves.

In each link, i still do moves which are hard for me yet no one move is entirely enough to shut me down. My body repeatedly experiences the feeling of successfully pulling off hard moves with less of the failure. A lot of quality engram programming occurs.

because there is more volume, my strength is also more generalized - i've become stronger at pinches, at big campusy movements, at body tension moves, underclings, etc.

Finally, on a limit move your brain is overwhelmed by the effort to stay on or move and often even if you succeed you're kind of flailing or wobbly., but on a hard link you are challenged yet have enough excess awareness to really feel your balance and improve the movement.

That doesn't sound ground breaking but if you visit any bouldering gym you'll see folks obsessing over a hard problem and working 1 or 2 moves to death, repeatedly falling and with each attempt getting further and further away from success.

[robertostallioni]

It's been almost two months since i've followed the philosophy of training bouldering strength through links of 2-5 hard moves.....

so, problems that are on your limit?

  .....instead of repeatedly trying 1-2 limit moves which are lower percentage.

instead of problems that are above your limit?

That doesn't sound ground breaking but if you visit any bouldering gym you'll see folks obsessing over a hard problem and working 1 or 2 moves to death, repeatedly falling and with each attempt getting further and further away from success.

Rarely see anybody trying the same move more than 3-4 times. To be fair most folks come in and smash around on 20ish problems on their limit, ticking some and just making links on others.

Unless we include Stubbs. 

[Nibile]

I haven't done 20 problemas in the last year, probably...

[krymson]

Rarely see anybody trying the same move more than 3-4 times. To be fair most folks come in and smash around on 20ish problems on their limit, ticking some and just making links on others.

me and my friends must be tenacious mofos then.

often see people working a move that is very hard(too hard) for them, or worse, climbing a problem up to the hard move and falling there repeatedly.

I've definitely been guilty of the former

Good in small doses to grasp a new technique or train recruitment but for strength training it's pretty much worthless.

[krymson]

btw,

If someones is smashing around on 20 problems at "their limit" in one session and ticking some, they by definition aren't climbing at their strength limit. The problems may be in some way hard, but the limit would be mental, endurance or stamina, not strength.

If I'm working strength, I would by definition try problems above my limit. They would have sustained hard moves which i can do individually, but can't yet link into a send.

[a dense loner]

This is not aimed at you krymson. If you're repeatedly failing on moves that are to hard for you that's not training strength that's you being a dick.

[shark]

I'm a dick

[Stubbs]

As Stallion pointed out above it would seem I am also a dick. Hoping to be less of a dick on my next session on the same problems!

[tomtom]

I'm nearly always a dick. To be fair, the times I'm not being a dick by not trying problems I can not do then I'm also probably also not not being a dick.

[Durbs]

I'm a dick, and so's my wife.

[Sasquatch]

You're making this way too hard.

You don't strength train using weights by constantly trying to lift something you can't lift.  You lift something that you can lift, and do it a certain number of times depending on what your workout specific goal is.  Periodically, you'll test yourself and see what your max is.  Done.  You can get into the details, but the reality is that it is this simple.  Even isometric training is done at a weight you can hold statically. 

Translating this into climbing is more difficult, because most of the time people fall off a move because they do the move wrong.  They are missing the technical aspect, not the strength.  What fool's people is that be getting stronger, you can do the move using greater strength instead of greater technique.  That doesn't change the fact that you fall off of a move because of the technique. 

In each link, i still do moves which are hard for me yet no one move is entirely enough to shut me down. My body repeatedly experiences the feeling of successfully pulling off hard moves with less of the failure. A lot of quality engram programming occurs.

I would assume from this that your technique has gotten better - Unless you've done controlled strength tests, I'd be hesitant about assuming you're "stronger". 

because there is more volume, my strength is also more generalized - i've become stronger at pinches, at big campusy movements, at body tension moves, underclings, etc.

Again, why assume it's your "strength".  I would assume it's your technique, rather than your strength. By increasing your volume, you've increased your technique training.

[Moo]

I'm sorry sasquatch but that post just made far too much sense in a no fuss straight forwards kind of way, especially for this forum.

Can we have the same again but perhaps include the picture of a goose?

[tomtom]

or an artists impression of Webbo after his massive bike ride - sat in a chair surrounded by chip and kebab detritus - with a can of beer in his hand.

But a goose is probably easier.

[Sasquatch]

So I have to admit, I don't get the goose reference......   

I think I may have a picture of me after a massive bike ride surrounded by food scraps with a beer in hand though

Here's my bouldering training plan. 
Step 1. Build Strength.
Step 2. Build Technique
Step 3. Apply and crush.

Simple.

[a dense loner]

Sasquatch basically said the same as I did but used 200 words whereas I used 3

[Sasquatch]

Yep

[saltbeef]

I'm a dick too. I disagree too. If you just rumble round doing stuff you can do it's too easy. I think the concept of doing 1 or 2 moves that are near or above your limit is definitely a worthwhile exercise to answer the OP question. Besides training max power you are likely developing a skill repertoire or new skill that has got to be a good thing. constantly failing on a move and gaining no insight into that move isn't necessarily worthless, if you are making inroads into actually doing that move and learning subtleties and nuances in order to actually perform it has to be beneficial. I also agree that doing lots of problems near your limit is a worthwhile endeavour too. ( I used more than 3 words, I also used capitals, grammar and sentences!)

[Sasquatch]

I never said it was worthless.  I said that generally speaking it's not the most effective method for strength training.  In fact, I would argue that neither links nor single hard moves are the most effective strength training method.  There are far more effective ways to train strength.

That said, I think both are really important.  Maybe I should have made it more clear, but I find the volume of hard moves is the best way to learn technique and engrams, and learning the confidence to do hard moves.  I just don't think it's the most effective strength training.  (an aside would be if you are setting and training specific movements in a controlled way such as a system board) 

constantly failing on a move and gaining no insight into that move isn't necessarily worthless, if you are making inroads into actually doing that move and learning subtleties and nuances in order to actually perform it has to be beneficial.

If you are gaining no insight, I'd argue that it is worthless, but I think that was a typo as you contradict yourself by saying you are learning subtleties and nuances, which by default means you are gaining insight.

[krymson]

Here's my bouldering training plan. 
Step 1. Build Strength.
Step 2. Build Technique
Step 3. Apply and crush.

Simple.

What if you could do both?

It's a bit hard to separate strength gains from technique gains but focusing on links recently I've made progress on individual moves, even on problems that i haven't touched for ages. (Is there some secret technique to pinching harder?)

My body tension feels stronger than ever, and DOMS has been a frequent visitor. Not just in the forearms either.

In any case, I think the most important measure of strength is being able to pull hard, physical moves and use bad holds. On that measure links have been working great for me.