[slackline]

That said, coloured holds are no guarantee of identifiable problems.  Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey.  The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!

I've a couple of friends who are red/green colour blind and they really detest having problems/routes set with these two colours on the same line/area.  It takes them about twice as long to work out which hold to use and often miss holds (although to be fair one of the climbs like a sloth anyway so its a lame excuse).

[SA Chris]

Last time I went to Leeds Wall, there were two areas that each accommodated a grey problem, a black, and a white.... which all looked grey.  The lighting was on the blink too which didn't help the colour matching process!

We get that too, to a point where you have to identify routes by the hold manufacturer stamp. Helps memorising holds though.

[erm, sam]

I prefer the tape solution to mark holds. You can have lots more problems in a given area sharing holds as discussed etc and if the probs are changed regularly tab/tape loss is less of a problem.

I think it slightly helps with real climbing hold remembering as you more often find your self mid crux trying to work out which is the correct foot, compared to when there is only one hold in the right colour. I think this is very analagous to being mid crux on an outside problem and having to remember the correct foot sequence.

[slackline]

I think it slightly helps with real climbing hold remembering as you more often find your self mid crux trying to work out which is the correct foot, compared to when there is only one hold in the right colour. I think this is very analagous to being mid crux on an outside problem and having to remember the correct foot sequence.

Isn't that often what you get with featured walls though, which was part of duncans original point?


Too many big holds/volumes in the same place on vertical sections can result in twatting yourself if you come off in an uncontrolled manner.

[i.munro]

They are a business so surely the whole point is to get more people through the doors.

The idea of a privately funded wall as some kind of an altrusitic service to climbers is a non starter. Sounds like they are keeping a majority of paying customers what they want and trying to get new ones. Unfortunately if they loose a few along the way so be it. As long as numbers go up its a success.

I really cant believe that people still think that these walls are built to keep us entertained and help our climbing progress.

It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.

a) they want to get more people through the doors
 - whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..


b) new customers arrive with their climbing preferences pre-set somehow
- I don't see how they can if they've never climbed before, I strongly suspect that what they come to want is more of what they are initially offered so why not offer them (an easier version of )what established climbers want.

[hongkongstuey]

Slightly (okay massively) off topic but you guys seem to know London walls quite well - gonna find myself in central London for the next few days for work and will likely have Tuesday evening free, so which wall is the best for a few hours bouldering entertainment - both in terms of access from Regents Park area and the quality of fun I can have?

Cheers, Stu

Hi Stu, just to echo what Thesiger said, Westway ( http://www.westwaysportscentre.org.uk/climbing/ )is your closest and will have enough bouldering in the back room to keep you busy for a visit, but if you have a bit of extra time Biscuit Factory ( http://archclimbingwall.com/biscuit/map/ ) is a great facility and a nicer space to climb in, about half an hour on the tube by the look of it.

Cheers guys - went to the Biscuit Factory last night. Now time for 13 hours of pain on a plane

[Paul B]

It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.

a) they want to get more people through the doors
 - whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..

I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.

[T_B]

I climbed on a few different nu skool walls this winter. As folk have said, it comes down to setting and choice of holds. For me personally, I'm convinced that doing more technical problems indoors at the Works has helped my outdoor climbing.

[T_B]

It seems to me that you're making the same assumptions as a lot of wall management & I suspect both are wrong.

a) they want to get more people through the doors
 - whereas I suspect what they really want is to increase profit & most businesses would kill for loyal, paying customers
who come with no marketing costa..

I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.

Plus that argument assumes there is no competition! We have a situation in Sheffield where a bigger, better, higher wall is apparently on its way. If other walls stand still, they will undoubtedly lose customers. They need to attract new ones and retain their current ones by offering something attractive. And that isn't the same old thing.

[gme]

i. munro

A business based on wringing every last penny out of loyal paying customers to pay for the, growth, changes, developments and improvements that the same loyal customers demand so they stay loyal, is one that needs to attract new customers.

[i.munro]

I suspect this isn't wrong at all. I understand where you're coming from with zero marketing costs but there's only so much money you can extract from the same ('loyal') people. With fresh blood you've got all manner of opportunities to make more profit (instruction, equipment etc.) as well as the chance they join your loyal membership and become steady income.

Not if your facilities become so biased towards providing what (you assume) your new customers require that you have no loyal membership for them to join. Several London walls are well into this territory now. For example  it's becoming a rarity at some places to spot  anyone who owns their own climbing shoes.

[John Boy]

For example  it's becoming a rarity at some places to spot  anyone who owns their own climbing shoes.

Where?

[SA Chris]

It amazes me how many people I see down the local wall on a regular basis use hire shoes. Surely not scholars of economics, or having any sense of smell.

[petekitso]

I have been climbing at castle and arch in the past few weeks wearing hire shoes. This is because I have been forced to concede that my new shiny scarpa shoes are a size too small and I feel I should be made to suffer before shelling out for replacement replacements . . .

That said, I have definitely been in the minority.

[Percy B]

Rock is one thing, a climbing wall is another. A long while back wall builders in the know decided that after lots of attempts at trying to make walls look, feel and climb like rock, we just couldn't do it quite as well as nature has, so we largely gave up and for the most part started to use materials which were less expensive and disgusting to work with than fibreglass - i.e.: wood. These modern flat surfaces covered in holds and volumes are nothing like rock and are not supposed to be, but in the hands of a good route setter can be used to try and recreate movement that climbers use on rock, and so you can gain a training benefit when you use them. The best medium for learning to rock climb is still rock, and always will be.

As to your personal preference for plywood, fibreglass or sprayed concrete as a training medium, its horses for courses. For me, plywood is the most flexible medium and gives to most opportunity for a creative route setter to set some great problems. However, a good and thorough setter should be able to give you great problems whatever the type of wall, given a few decent holds to play with.

I don't think modern climbing walls are rubbish - far from it. They are brilliant compared to what we used to train on 20 years ago. I think that modern climbing has changed, and we seem much more driven to train inside than we used to. Maybe modern climbing walls are so good, easy to get to, comparatively cheap, well run and convenient for somebody with a few spare hours to do some training that we've forgotten that those few hours used to be the quick 'nip out onto the grit' windows we used to enjoy with far more regularity. A few hours bouldering on the crag is almost certainly a far better way to improve your climbing than going down the wall, but it does require a lot more effort, and nowadays its just a bit to easy to bag it off and go inside.

Maybe this thread should be re-titled "Modern climbing walls are brilliant, but they are ruining my climbing because I'd rather go indoors than brave the shitty British weather and risk going out."?

Bollocks - just read this back and have realised I have made a grave error. For gods sake, please don't stop going down the wall! I can't believe how stupid I can be.....

[Dolly]

I hear what youre saying  Percy and despite the thinly veiled sales pitch (cough) as soon as you make the decision that its easier to go inside than out youve crossed the line.


Please dont misunderstand me and think im having a go, Im not 

Im just saying that as soon as you choose to go inside rather than out on the basis of "convenience" youve chosen not to climb but to trainEven if you dont agree with the specifics of what Ive written, Im sure you get the spirit of it.

[tomtom]

+1 Percy and Dolly

[a dense loner]

Good post Percy. All completely true for most people. I used to go to Stanage or burbage most nights to do the same problems over and over, which was good at the time. Now I'll go to the wall instead since its far more convenient, gets me stronger for my plans that aren't grit orientated, and serves coffee. Time is a major factor too, risk an hr at burbage or climb for 2 at the wall? It's a no-brainer most of the time.
Modern walls are brilliant. Don't get me wrong I won't stop slagging them off, too much use of volumes etc.
As quite rightly pointed out outside climbing is outside

[a dense loner]

I don't really agree re your post about crossing the line dolly. Most people I see at the wall are climbing not training. The ones that are training can be found looking sour-faced and not speaking to anyone near the motherboard, or conversely the circuit board but no-one talks about them

[Stu Littlefair]

Or to them

[John Boy]

The ones that are training can be found looking sour-faced and not speaking to anyone near the motherboard, or conversely the circuit board but no-one talks about them

Doh. That is exactly how I look.

[BenGrubb]

I've just read through this whole thread and there's a lot of it I agree with and a lot of it I don't. However, I think calling out specific people and questioning their ability to perform their job (or indeed comment on things) is really out of line. Have you thoughts and say on the issue at hand (the removal of the feature wall) but don't make it personal. That's not cool. Rich is a good guy and very good route setter who really cares about what he does and about making the Castle a better facility.

Having been a Castle regular for about six years now, I've had a lot of good times on the feature wall, but overall I'm glad it's being replaced. A lot of the T-nuts were knackered meaning that it was very limiting for the setters to set on that wall and keep the problems different or interesting. And of course, there was always the old faithful heel hook and knee bar get-out-of-jail-free cards (anyone who's climbed on the feature wall for any length of time know what I'm talking about). Yes, I've had some really good sessions doing features only problems, but they tended to be more about hanging out with friends than really training. I agree with everyone in this thread that says that featured bouldering is no substitute for climbing outside. It's really not.

The Castle has made a lot of changes over the last couple of years and the centre has hugely improved because if it. I'm looking forward to the new comp wall and the new Loft area. Granted they (clearly) aren't going to please everyone with this decision but I'd much rather climb at a wall that makes the effort to change, expand and improve than somewhere that stays the same year in; year out. 

[ciro]

I'm with duncan, it's a disgrace. It's not just climbing walls though, my local pool doesn't provide seaweed, murky water, jellyfish and waves to help me train for open water swimming, and I've had absolutely no joy trying to get an indoor tennnis court in London with a gusty wind generator and uneven bounce. It's not good enough.

[Muenchener]

I'm with duncan, it's a disgrace.  my His local pool climbing wall doesn't provide seaweed, murky water, jellyfish and waves to help me him train for south west trad climbing

[cowboyhat]

I've just read through this whole thread and there's a lot of it I agree with and a lot of it I don't. However, I think calling out specific people and questioning their ability to perform their job (or indeed comment on things) is really out of line.

The Castle has made a lot of changes over the last couple of years and the centre has hugely improved because if it. I'm looking forward to the new comp wall and the new Loft area.

Agree, naming Rich was needlessly personal. And Ben's the first person to mention the Loft! Have you seen it 'Duncan'?

The castle are expanding by about 40%!

The feature wall was of its time. We had some great problems on there and I used to love using the circuit to warm up before climbing on the wave. I used to love my old one litre Mini. I don't miss it.

Anyway, despite training in the castle i'm still getting better at rock climbing. If you reveal yourself 'Duncan' I can show you how.