[duncan]

This Sunday, The Castle will be getting rid of the Crispin Waddy-designed features bouldering wall replacing it with... you guessed it yet another plywood and bolt-ons construction.  Don't despair though, apparently we will also have volumes.  Oh woopie doo, I can hardly contain my excitement.  Just like all the other Clone Walls in London.  It’s not just The Castle: Mile End have being going this way, The Arch/Biscuit Factory never tried. It’s like high street shopping, there is the illusion of diversity but, in reality, there is no choice. We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like.

From the perspective of someone wanting to train for the outdoors this is a rubbish decision. I want nasty, unobvious smears. I want crappy intermediates. I want awkward pockets. I want cracks! You know, like real rock. "A gentle reminder that you won't find any plastic, coloured and  'sticky out' footholds on any of the above [long list of great routes]."

From the facebook comments, someone calling himself Rich 'Tricky' Hudson seems to think this reduction in choice represents progress. He has no business setting because he transparently has no understanding of (or, more likely, no interest in) the needs of people who climb on rock.

The only people benefiting from this are the setters for whom this will provide more and easier work and the management who find the features wall embarrassingly scruffy and difficult to keep clean. The only possible conclusion is The Castle management are not interested in providing a training facility for people who climb outdoors but prefer pandering to those that use walls as the currently fashionable alternative to gyms or exercise classes. Modern plastic-pulling climbers are frequently massively strong and fit, yet there has been no increase in the median route grade climbed in the last 30 years. Modern walls are rubbish for training people to climb on real rock.

How do we get climbing wall management listening and providing something of more use to people that climb outdoors?

[rodma]

How about just speaking to them or emailing them

[scottygillery]

"We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like."



Unfortunately, climbing walls have to be a successful business. Therefore appealing mostly to what its average customer would like makes good financial sense. I would imagine that if the castle polled it users with a question like "do you want the old features wall or a massive works style comp wall that you see in all modern competition climbing" the answer would be pretty straightforward. Times are changing. Look at broughton. 

[shurt]

Thought this might be about a new blur album...

Sorry

[dave]

a massive works style comp wall

What, a wall which almost nobody climbs on most of the time but takes up tons of space?

[scottygillery]

I was talking about what people want, not what they would use. 

[duncan]

How about just speaking to them or emailing them

Emailing?  That's a bit 2007 isn't it?  I posted on their facebook page of course.

Thought this might be about a new blur album...

Or an article in an old OTE...

[nicboarder]

Climbing outdoors is the best training for climbing outdoors, no? Nothing like training on 'real rock' to get better at climbing on real rock!

Indoor walls help many people to train strength and techniques in a slightly safer environment, without the fear of coming a cropper on a bouldering mat, on a dodgy landing. Where do you climb outdoors if the Castle is your local wall, I live in south east now unfortunately, I find there is so little outdoor bouldering in the area I am surprised anyone climbing indoors in London actually climbs on real rock. My experiences of going to climbing walls in London (The Castle and Biscuit Factory) were that many of the people in there i.e. the bread and butter income for the climbing wall, seemed to be not from outdoor climbers - I spoke to a few people and they had never climbed on rock and the guys behind the counter said that a large proportion of their custom is from people that have never climber outdoors.

If climbing walls are to make a profit and therefore stay open and provide a training environment and resource for outdoor climbers as well, then they have to make sound business decisions. They have to cater for all their customers needs, and particularly provide what the bread and butter customers want, and if there is not enough demand for said features, then maybe it is time for the climbing wall to decide to progress and offer something that is going to be used by most of their customers, best use of space etc.  If climbing walls ignore their largest client base, it won't be long before the volume of customers decreases, they stop making money, then they can't afford to get decent route setters in, then before you know it your local wall has gone down the pan, and risks shutting down and opening up opportunity for other operators to come in and open a better facility in your area.

Climbing walls are businesses, that provide a different experience for a variety of different people. Not everyone wants to climb outdoors on rock, it's a social thing to some people, and a nice alternative to slogging in the gym for others even though you may not like it. However, it is the demand for these facilities that is enabling so many new bouldering and climbing facilities to pop up around the country, and there are a number of walls that have opened in the last couple of years that offer great training for outdoor climbing with good quality route setting, that cater for climbers needs, but also provide an experience for those that have never set foot on an outdoor boulder. 

As for your opinion on what anyone other than the 'average' customer may like or the needs of climbers who climb on real rock, how can you speak on behalf of them, what you may like to train on is probably very different from a lot of other people.

There are a lot of very good outdoor climbers that get their indoor training needs met by plywood and tiny screw ons and smears. If you can smear on plywood painted with matt finished paint, then just think how good it will feel smearing on actual real life textured rock.

I have climbed on a wall that sounds similar to the feature wall you are talking about, and frankly it was absolutely nothing like climbing on real rock. It was awful. I make improvements in my rock climbing when I actually climb on rock, which is all too rare these days, and a textured, dusty, greasy feature wall (that is permanent and cannot evolve or be reset) doesn't translate to climbing on rock (in my opinion).  I think indoor training (for me anyway) is more about honing skills and developing strength, which can then be put to good use when it finally stops raining and I can get up north onto the grit.

Maybe you should find a group of like-minded folk and find a space where you can set up your very own indoor training facility, with a feature wall in it, if that is the training you prefer, or you could just go and find some rocks.

[Ti_pin_man]

I don't think it will change and looking outside at the drizzle I can see why new climbers stay indoors here.  I think theirs a missing link, the missing link is where walls take their newer climbers out to the real world.  Weekend real rock trips.  Maybe that would help. 

[crimp]

Modern climbing walls are rubbish.

Most are. But some are forward thinking enough to have a bar, which makes up for their deficiencies, in my opinion.

[abarro81]

I'm so glad I have the foundry. Long live the wave!

[Duma]

I think this (the features wall) is getting retained, just moved (something in my brain is saying outside, but that sounds crazy (though even more realistic for you duncan!))

[ghisino]

We get what the seller wants us to buy, what is convenient for them, not what anyone other than the ‘average’ customer might like.

i just notice that a very similar statement has been used by a couple of people who know the bussiness to answer exactly the opposite rant

Q: "why do we still get those featured panels that get polished in 3 years and make setting more predictable?, when now we can get more or less the same effect with wolumes, macro holds and micro screw-ons?"
A: "Because the developement of this product took quite a lot of money some years ago and as a consequence some wall builders are very hesitant to get rid of it - they'll try to sell it as long as it is possible."

[Stubbs]

Duma I think you are right, they are moving it outside, better conditions for all those unobvious smears that Duncan wants!

After living in London for two years and climbing at the Castle almost exclusively in the Mezz, the panels and the wave (with one session on the features after  a reset each month)  I've moved back to Yorkshire and have am having my most successful season on the grit ever.

I've never bought this argument that indoor climbing needs to mimic what you want to climb outside; for me going to the wall is about getting stronger and better in a variety of ways (i.e. contact strength, finger strength, core, session endurance, power endurance, etc. etc.) and for me this seems to be best gained on steeper angles and poorer holds.

Blank panels and volumes allow for a very large variety in problem setting, fixed features do not.  You only have to go to the Foundry and watch people on the wave putting their feet on the little smears without really looking.

Duncan do you forget to jam if you don't practice it indoors?

[Fiend]

Cracks and unobvious smears make you weak 

[Muenchener]

You need to move to Loughborough. Mr Randall has done the best job I've seen yet of building a decent training facility using flat plywood panels, largely by the expedient of using lower angles but smaller holds than is typical these days.

(He evidently has the offwidth roof cracks hidden away in some back room where they are not visible to frighten the casual visitor; at ay rate I didn't see them on my visit)

I made a nostalgic visit to Broughton last year, and it showed the obvious problem of a wall that you can't re-set or re-coat: the polish is horrendous. It may be excellent training for climbing at Stoney, but not for anywhere that you might actually go to enjoy the climbing.

[account_inactive]

I climbed on that wall for years and enjoyed making and sharing problems with friends. It was never a means to get strong, unlike the wave. If people are not using it then it makes business sense to move it outside (I hear they are not binning it).
I was route setting manager at Mile End for 2 years and instigated the building of new walls to cover up some of the gash old DR walls. People complained when they went but beforehand I sat with pen and paper counting the number of people who actually used them during a busy night. The new walls now get WAY more use. Is this better for climbing outside  I've no idea. I trained on that wall at the Castle and was weak.....I now climb at BoulderUK and am still weak

[lmarenzi]

The Westway has recently put up a bunch of featured wall including two cracks if you are interested.

To be fair to the Castle tho, there were plenty of cracks when I was there a few years ago, with what seemed a pretty good mix of walls, so not really sure what you mean.

[Tommy]

Fiend: sod off  But yes, true unfortunately....

Muenchener: thanks very much, glad you enjoyed it. As partners in the business we're all outside climbers so it's been important for us to make sure the walls/setting/holds are technical and hold interest to outdoor climbers as well.

Duncan: I feel your pain. It was such a shame to see Mile End lose those lovely finger cracks. I've spent hours and hours plodding up and down those over the years. It has to be said though, that I think I was about the only one that ever did it! Maybe that's why Brits are crap at cracks.... not enough old school mile end panels. Or is it no Indian Creek??

[DubDom]

i don't know the wall in question but I'll put in a vote against over-featured bouldering walls in general. In fact the only one which has lots of features on it that still remains decent that I can think of is the wave in the foundry.

[iwasmexican]

as far as my experience goes featured walls teach you nothing apart from how to climb on those particular walls, not much at all to do with climbing outside. this is mainly based on the featured wall at alien 2 in edinburgh, of which after about three sessions you learn the best foot placements and after that nothing at all is gained from any further training on said wall.

imo training is better on steeper walls and practice for outdoors is best kept outdoors, the two arent really interchangeable; training indoors does not equal training outdoors, but both can be just as beneficial to the other.

[tomtom]

I climb c80 % of the time on rock. Walls are a place of last training resort - but I much prefer smooth plywood and bolt/screw ons to pseudo natural effect or things like sandtex painted ply etc...
Plastic is plastic. It's always a substitute. IMHO  The quality of the wall is influenced most by the problem setter - then the geometry of the wall itself.

[hongkongstuey]

Slightly (okay massively) off topic but you guys seem to know London walls quite well - gonna find myself in central London for the next few days for work and will likely have Tuesday evening free, so which wall is the best for a few hours bouldering entertainment - both in terms of access from Regents Park area and the quality of fun I can have?

Cheers, Stu

[rginns]

as far as my experience goes featured walls teach you nothing apart from how to climb on those particular walls,

You need to get down to Broughton, still the best place to get strong and the best place to train for limestone. There are good and bad featured walls though. The features at broughton may not change but there are about 500 documented problems or something stupid like that. I find with most ply walls there is so little room for creating problems to train  one type of climb or hold (unless there's a boring systems board) so you end up trying the few problems at your limit by following the colourful blobs. Unfortunately feature walls are this is becoming less and less commercially viabciale for the reasons stated. I'd pro do the same if I were a climbing wall owner, but that doesn't make it less of a crying shame to see the good ones go down the pan...

[rginns]

Message a bit fuducked as I'm on a phone but you get the gist