[slackline]

Then I wonder why he acts out the part of trolling cunt here then?

Maybe he hates himself.

[Sloper]

When I recently stomped on a moron who was  re creationism I received plaudits for the abrupt/abrasive nature of the response.

The problem with this debate is that I have provided links to the Kings Fund 'myth busters' and from memory the official stats that show that Labour engaged in a greater degree of privatisation of the NHS than the current government have.  The response? The stats are wrong / made up / I don't agree and some fairly tangential waffle.

the NHS is facing a good number of serious challenges and the continual cant of 'the tories are going to sell off our NHS' is not only jejune and facille but also limits proper debate of what reforms are needed to maintain the system that probably delivers more for less, for more people, more often and more fairly than any other comparable system.

As for trolling on this site, I would sugegst that I've never done so (my late career change was as close as it gets and that was intoxication rather than intentional trolling) the problem is that the group think is so pervasive that it takes a bit of an effort to cut through the mire of ignorant consensus.

Ohh and we're without consultants for A&E now, could this possibly be due to the choices of doctors who started training in 2001/2 etc?

The fantastically hypocrital Marget Hodge was on R4 this morning castigating A&E consultants who decided it was better to locum @£1760 per day (of course the agency would take some) and have a family life & etc then get arse fucked as a permanent staff member. WTF is it that surprising? 

[Offwidth]

I think you're too often plain rude for the sake of it (we are not all religious nutcases) and you seem to me to often make stuff up as you spout rhetoric like its the truth, rather than opinion: that's not a trolling, if anything its an indication you need to grow the fuck up  online as you are just not like this in real life.

You are like a dog with a rag with these Kings Fund papers. Yet they only show things like directly contracted out health care to private providers from NHS budgets. I've said before, numerous areas of in house NHS spend goes to things like private management consultants, agency staff, contracted out work, PFI payments, etc; irrespective of the long standing private business grey areas of the NHS, like consultant contracted out time, GP surgeries, dentists practices, opticians etc. This is also before the huge changes in private provision in health ares not strictly in the NHS but intimately linked, like Social Care, Public Health Commisioning etc. Then we have the hundreds of millions wasted (and the huge distraction and all that energy that should have been constructively focussed elsewhere) on uneeded and unsuccessful change. I, like anyone, dont have the numbers to hand on the full scope of privatisation as they exist in numerous non-aligned reports most of which require an FOI. In fact its so bloody hard to find how much money is being directed to private companies through various parts of the public sector its arguably a national scandal....with the ideology present in some quarters its all the more reason to suspect stuff is being hidden.

Yours, a 'moron' (at a guess)

[Sloper]

Calm down dear.  I can be just as obnoxious and rude in real life and generally will if the chance presents itself.

But moving on.

The reasons I keep referring to the Kings Fund is that they're independent and highly regarded: if I were to refer to Tory Party material I would rightly get a pasting, but it's nice to see that you've moved on from saying that the KF is wrong to something approximating the 'no true Scotsman' position, give it a few more years and we'll be having a real debate.

Ohh and top marks for brass neck for the 'I don't have the numbers to hand but' yeah 'stands to reason eh g'vnor, ere I had that Oswold Mosely in the back of my cab the other day, 'e 'ad a point eh'.

Yes, your guess is spot on, on this subject you're being a prime moron, I'll remind you of it when I next have the chance to buy you a pint. (if the pub hasn't been nationalised by those filthy reds)

[drdeath]

Ohh and we're without consultants for A&E now, could this possibly be due to the choices of doctors who started training in 2001/2 etc?

The fantastically hypocrital Marget Hodge was on R4 this morning castigating A&E consultants who decided it was better to locum @£1760 per day (of course the agency would take some) and have a family life & etc then get arse fucked as a permanent staff member. WTF is it that surprising? 

On this point - it is worth noting that the figures are, as ever, slightly misleading if not downright mendacious...

That 1760 a day was for a 16 hour shift.

Now, they could have just quoted 880 a day for the normal 8hrs that everyone would obviously expect that they were referring to, but that wouldn't have sounded quite so sensational...

Particularly, as you say, if they included the cut for the locum agency.

And they are talking about A&E Consultants...literal life and death, sharp end, RTA, major trauma, blood and guts decision making. How much do you expect to get that for, out of contract...

To compare apples and oranges - How much per hour would a similarly experienced corporate lawyer run you?  Or a lobbyist for that matter....

Do I think they should be having to spend such vast sums on locums - nope! Do I see how it gets to that - yup!

(Disclaimer, I do a wee bit of private medical work, usually from behind a desk, nice and comfy with coffee and biscuits, and charge £115-125 an hour...legal reports etc...)

[Sloper]

Let me make this absolutely clear I do not criticise people deciding to o locum work rather than be a full time employee: nor do I (other than as a sophistic point) refer to 'fat cat doctors', nor do I think that the hourly rate is excessive, it's below what I charge out at* below what I pay counsel for serious work (i.e. when not on fixed fee which most is) [Ru, of course when I'm in the shit I'll pay what needs to be paid and there's a brief for you on the way].

My point was it was a bit fucking rich for Ms Hodge to seek to blame the doctors for the consequences of their policies for the NHS (and of course the policies of this government too) we're desperately short of A&E bods, perhas we could try and address the causes rather than creating a straw man to then burn as an effigy? 

*And by god I'm no high flying corporate lawyer.

[drdeath]

Oh, I think this is one area that we are close to agreement on Sloper...just sick of hearing this crap on the radio today...

I mean...a 16hr shift for fuck sake...if it wasn't so blatant it would be funny.

[Offwidth]

Calm down dear.  I can be just as obnoxious and rude in real life and generally will if the chance presents itself.

But moving on.

The reasons I keep referring to the Kings Fund is that they're independent and highly regarded: if I were to refer to Tory Party material I would rightly get a pasting, but it's nice to see that you've moved on from saying that the KF is wrong to something approximating the 'no true Scotsman' position, give it a few more years and we'll be having a real debate.

Ohh and top marks for brass neck for the 'I don't have the numbers to hand but' yeah 'stands to reason eh g'vnor, ere I had that Oswold Mosely in the back of my cab the other day, 'e 'ad a point eh'.

Yes, your guess is spot on, on this subject you're being a prime moron, I'll remind you of it when I next have the chance to buy you a pint. (if the pub hasn't been nationalised by those filthy reds)

[slackline]

As for trolling on this site, I would sugegst that I've never done so

Utter fucking bullshit....

I am interested in debate, but have to confess that a lot of the time it's merely the prospect of a 5 minute argument rather than the former that attracts.

 

[Sloper]

Having an argument is not trolling.

[Sloper]

yes it is you twat.

[petejh]

Fuck you Sloper 

... Genuine question - seeing how lots of NHS money is spent on expensive British (I assume?) locums, is there an opportunity here for highly qualified consultants from eastern euro/rest of the world to come and do the work for half the cost to the NHS. Or is there protectionism over and above professional qualifications?

[Sloper]

Fuck you Sloper 

... Genuine question - seeing how lots of NHS money is spent on expensive British (I assume?) locums, is there an opportunity here for highly qualified consultants from eastern euro/rest of the world to come and do the work for half the cost to the NHS. Or is there protectionism over and above professional qualifications?

Yes there is an opportunity, but there was a very high profile case of a German Dr who flew over when knackered and administered a leathal dose of diamorpheine so i can imagine there being a real problem with public perception and politics.

In fact it could make Farage explode!

[slackline]

Having an argument is not trolling.

You are wrong...

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

In your own words you are only looking for an argument, not a debate....

I am interested in debate, but have to confess that a lot of the time it's merely the prospect of a 5 minute argument rather than the former that attracts.

...ergo...



 

[petejh]

Fuck you Sloper 

... Genuine question - seeing how lots of NHS money is spent on expensive British (I assume?) locums, is there an opportunity here for highly qualified consultants from eastern euro/rest of the world to come and do the work for half the cost to the NHS. Or is there protectionism over and above professional qualifications?

Yes there is an opportunity, but there was a very high profile case of a German Dr who flew over when knackered and administered a leathal dose of diamorpheine so i can imagine there being a real problem with public perception and politics.

In fact it could make Farage explode!

I don't think anyone cares one jot where their trauma specialists come from when they're on the operating table following a traumatic event, I'm sure even Farage would find his ideals dropped away the instant one of his family required specialist emergency care.

E.g the MSF model, applied to a first world healthcare system?

If the British healthcare system is facing a staffing/budget crisis as bad as it's described in the media, then this seems like an obvious partial solution to me - as a know-fuck-all-about-it observer.

[Sloper]

That's not my definition  and besides I've lost a lot of weight since that photo' was taken.

besides what was the strap line for UKB?

[webbo]

What does "privatisation" actually mean with regards to those figures?

From memory it's payments from central NHS funds to private suppliers of treatment services (as opposed to IT outsourcing, locum staff, drugs, GPs and so on)

I think this is where the myth lies as if its funds from the central NHS pot. Then it will not show local privatisation i.e offering services to any qualified provider which uses local budgets. Also they class this as outsourcing which is again a way of hiding it.

[Sloper]

These tender exercises weren't within the figures for Labour and they're not within the figures fro the present government: that said this has been going on for some time: I wonder if the Kings Fund have any reliable data?

[Offwidth]

These tender exercises weren't within the figures for Labour and they're not within the figures fro the present government: that said this has been going on for some time: I wonder if the Kings Fund have any reliable data?

Thats part of the the point I was trying to make which you seemingly regard as brass necking: the recent data is often not yet collected, partly collected or is as yet uncollated. All that King's Fund data (that only deals with outsourced health work and not the other areas I list) is at least a year old so is only looking at the first half of this goverment. In contrast the people I know who work in or around NHS commissioning, public health commissioning, social care commisioning, mental health commisioning all report noticable increases in non public sector provision (as do many similar positioned posters here). Labour started this off but the data you use tiodefend the condems seriously underestimates current scale and we wont know exactly how much until it is too late.

The locum/agency issues often have hidden causes like suppressed core staff levels to keep balance sheets suitable for trust status and work related stress due to overwork.

On the personnal point you really need to go back and look just how many of your posts involve non-climbing related 5 minute arguments and other assorted rudeness... get your wife to come on here and say she is happy that you are not wasting your life as an argumentaive actor and I'll beleive you (Moff advises me to cut down and calm down and I'm a cute puppy that nips occasionally compared to you).

[Sloper]

1. The first half of the government was 2010-2012.

2. The propotion of the NHS budget that you're talking about i.e. public health, social care, mental health is de minimis when taken agains the whole NHS budget: as such even if the ratio was 1:10 (Labour/Coalition) this would not change the overall ratio of Labour Privatisation to that under this government 4:1.

3. The data referred to in the stats published does not include the sort of outsourcing etc that you're referring to: as such the core charge that the NHS is being privatised simply fails.

Locum use will have a massive range of causes.

As for my posting, yes I do like a scrap, nothing wrong with that and I am sure Mrs Sloper prefers me to vent spleen and decompress on here then be a stroppy bastard at home.

[Offwidth]

Privatisation increased 1% in the first half of this government compared to 4% in all the previous labour terms. Sure they are just as much to blame on volume (I always agreed that) but this goverment isnt tory, its a coalition.  In some areas there is way more non-public than public provision and the budget levels are not so different in scale: so your maths are far from certain (it could add a few more percent quite easily).

Most reasons for Locums are due to under-resourcing somewhere and any planned savings are easily lost, usually leading to a more expensive service provision.

I'm guessing Mrs Sloper would think different if she knew the scale of your venting. You're acting like an addict and your level of venting isnt healthy.

[Sloper]

I doubt it, Mrs Sloper has heard/seen me at work, and much of the language I use on here is also used at work.

[webbo]

I doubt it, Mrs Sloper has heard/seen me at work, and much of the language I use on here is also used at work.

I hope your employees are not taping things or you might a lawyer.

[Sloper]

If calling a client / expert / opponent / counsel / instructing solicitor or Judge a moron / fucking twat or similar was a striking off / disbarring offence there would be no one in practice.

[webbo]

No I sure it isn't a striking off offence but swearing and ranting in front of employees who may at some point decide you are no longer the boss of their dreams. Tape you and play it a tribunal and suddenly you are paying for the equivalent for months of locus consultants 16 hour days.