[Ru]

How could the NHS stop a partnership assigning the rights under a contract to a LLP / Company? The contractual rights are property of the partnership and I would be surprised if they could not be transferred, after all a retiring / dead partner cannot be a new event.

I very briefly looked into this a year ago.

The contracts can be held by limited companies, with some caveats, but transferring a contract is probably not possible. There's a clause in the GMS contract that says that it's non assignable without consent of NHS England, but NHS England won't give consent. Instead they would be put the contract out to tender under the Public Contracts regs.

AFAIK, LLPs cannot hold a GMS contract under the GMS Regulations.

[Sloper]

Nonsense on fucking stilts (not your explanation which I take as wholly accurate) but the bollocks rules structured by the DoH.

Maybe the Dr's need some wholly owned service companies and SPV to work around the regs? I'm sure you know a commercial devil to work around?

[Ru]

Maybe the Dr's need some wholly owned service companies and SPV to work around the regs? I'm sure you know a commercial devil to work around?

Zero visibility. Not sure I'd want to invest in a business that might become completely unviable after the next election.

[a dense loner]

Can I ask why this news would put people off being gp's? They have to do more work I understand that, they have to do more work for less money I understand that. Everybody has to do more work for less money it's a sign of the times, what else are the trainee gp's going to do? Become lawyers? That'll drive the price down for that. People of a certain intelligence are always going to be drawn to a particular vocation.

[Ru]

There are lots of other sorts of doctors apart from GPs.

[GCW]

Sorry Ru, I have clearly missed your point.

[a dense loner]

Ok let's substitute gp for doctor. I also call a barrister a lawyer, a surgeon a doctor etc. my bad

[GCW]

The difference is that as a GP we get £60 per patient per year for unlimited access. Secondary care gets multiples of that, but still expects GPs to do their work. So the consultant does less work, fewer hours and dumps work in the GP but we get called lazy  and overpaid?  It's far too complex to explain, but basically Lee all the GPs will fuck off and the NHS will die. 

[Ru]

It was a reply to dense, but i didn't read back far enough in  the thread. Ignore my last post. Carry on.

[a dense loner]

Gcw no it won't. I think people already in a decent position forget about the hard work it took them to get there and how people coming up through the ranks will take most hits going to get to such a decent position. I know a few gps who have entered the profession recently, they moan like everyone else and then take the job anyway. Which is what people do

[GCW]

That's fine Lee, but I think time will prove you wrong.

[a dense loner]

By there being less doctors? What utter rot. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying gps are lazy and overpaid I'm saying there'll always be someone to fill the gap, willing to do the same workload for less

[GCW]

That's exactly the point.

[a dense loner]

Eh? I was replying to you saying all the gps will fuck off and the nhs will die. I said no they won't there will always be someone wanting to be a gp even if it means a shitter workload and pay cuts. So the gps will always be there and the nhs won't die, well it will but not for a lack of gps. So what's exactly the point?

[GCW]

It's a shame you can't read the comments on the Peverley thread.  Doctors won't do this work if the pay is less and the work is more. That's a fact based on recent surveys. The point, therefore, is that someone else will do it ie nurses etc. It won't work.

Another announcement today that hospitals can open a GP surgery if the local GPs can't recruit. Eh? The reason they can't recruit is that there aren't enough GPs!

I won't be a GP on 10 years, unless things change significantly.

[GCW]

Just to be clear- it won't work as a free at the point of access system.

[Oldmanmatt]

It's a shame you can't read the comments on the Peverley thread.  Doctors won't do this work if the pay is less and the work is more. That's a fact based on recent surveys. The point, therefore, is that someone else will do it ie nurses etc. It won't work.

Another announcement today that hospitals can open a GP surgery if the local GPs can't recruit. Eh? The reason they can't recruit is that there aren't enough GPs!

I won't be a GP on 10 years, unless things change significantly.

I think Lee has heard similar arguments in a different profession, as have I in a similar line to Lee.
In my industry, the overworked, highly trained professionals; when they began to protest, found themselves replaced by people with East European or Filipino  accents...

I'm not in any way saying it's right.

[GCW]

Yes, that's true. But the big difference is that they are employees. As a GP, I am the boss. I hold the contract. If you replace me with an Eastern European then they would need to be employed by someone ie Virgin healthcare.

Lee, I'll be frank here. I work in a decent practice, above average income. I work 11 hour days which are pretty high workload and even more responsibility. I read shit in the papers every day about how rubbish GPs are, which is increasingly the perception. In the last tax year after tax, employee pension, employer pension, indemnity cover, college membership, BMA membership etched etc etc, my net earnings were less than £40k.

Do you seriously think I'll carry on doing more work for less money?  Or do you think that with a degree and high level of education, I could do a less stressful job for not much less money?

[a dense loner]

First off it's not Sunday so why is everyone calling me Lee all of a sudden? I can see you're pissed off with the situation, it's shitty! It happens in every industry to some degree. That has not been my point, my point is not about you or your peers now. You're speaking from your situation "do you think I'll carry on doing more work for less money" no I don't think you will. You'll leave and someone else will replace you, you're not omnipotent you know 

Obviously deals will be thrashed out around large walnut tables to see how much they can take off you but that's another story.

[rich d]

Yes, that's true. But the big difference is that they are employees. As a GP, I am the boss. I hold the contract. If you replace me with an Eastern European then they would need to be employed by someone ie Virgin healthcare.

Lee, I'll be frank here. I work in a decent practice, above average income. I work 11 hour days which are pretty high workload and even more responsibility. I read shit in the papers every day about how rubbish GPs are, which is increasingly the perception. In the last tax year after tax, employee pension, employer pension, indemnity cover, college membership, BMA membership etched etc etc, my net earnings were less than £40k.

Do you seriously think I'll carry on doing more work for less money?  Or do you think that with a degree and high level of education, I could do a less stressful job for not much less money?

Genuine question what are the other options for qualified doctors? Hospital doctors especially newly qualifying/qualified seem to work horrendous hours and shifts, or that's the perception that's given. Are there other opportunities for other areas?
The industry I work in hasn't seen a reduction in wages for qualified opticians, workload and expectation have increased but seeing as the colleges are not increasing the number of graduates coming through the wages are still high due to scarcity. In areas where younger graduates don't want to live (south west, East Anglia and other areas away from the large conurbations) the simple logistics of supply and demand create a gap and considerably higher salaries.
Most opticians work for private companies, with a reclaim for NHS work going to the private company and the optician taking a salary from the company so I understand there is a difference.

From the NHS website with some provisos GP salary "Salaried GPs who are part of a CCG earn between £54,863 to £82,789 dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience" This doesn't seem like it'll put too many people off, especially as there is still a perception that GPs and doctors have a real status in a community and there may be other benefits

[GCW]

Dense, I know I will be replaced. But it won't be as an independent contractor, which is the difference. I'm sure you could run things on salaried doctors, but who would do the other work that makes up the unseen half of the work?
It will have to be done on a larger scale by a company that can run matters and tender for the service. There is likely to be a fee attached to this...

[Ru]

Actually, having read the rest of the thread, my post did make sense. The point was that medical students will opt not to become GPs and become other sorts of doctor instead. This will lead to a recruitment issue at the bottom end. At the top end partners will retire early or jump ship to become locums or salaried. This is happening. No one will want the financial risk, added stress and increased workload of becoming a partner when often they earn less than locums. Partnerships will fold (short term). This is happening. There is currently nothing to replace the patnerships. Result, GP shortage.

[GCW]

Decent summary there, Ru.

[tomtom]

Is it me or does this sound awfully like what happened to the teaching profession during the 80/early 90's...?

Devaluing of the career, erosion of pay and benefits? Leading to a crisis in the profession and the Blair govt having to spend millions on training & sweeteners to get people to join/train?

[GCW]

Except I think this is intentional and a one way ticket.