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How to decrease neural inhibition? (Read 5772 times)

mloskot

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How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 29, 2013, 08:12:18 pm
Hi,

I have tried to find some training advice about decreasing inhibitory
neural feedback for a while, but didn't find anything good and climbing-specific.

First, I learned about the neural inhibition while reading Steve Bechtel's blog on
Strength and Power Training Sessions for Bouldering. He explained use of bigger holds as "if we use small holds, neural inhibition screws things up".

Eric J. Hörst also states in his book that "neural inhibition was reducing their maximum strength to almost half of their absolute capacity".

More reading of Steve Bechtel's blog showed also this note: "Its rarely the raw strength of the lat and arm that fails a climber anyway. When a climber can’t pull a move, more likely than not its a neurological inhibition of that muscle group".

So, I matched that to my own observations I've been making for some time:
while making a powerful move on steep wall like 45-degree system board or on campus,
switching from bigger (i.e. 30mm) to smaller (i.e. 20mm) four-finger edge I can observe
significant difference in ability of upper body muscles to pull, to initiate the move.
I can hang on the smaller edge for longish seconds, but I can't pull towards next move.
It feels like the arm and back muscles are simply shut.

So, I understand such reaction is caused by the inhibitory neural feedback, as shortly explained in this article from the American Scientist. It also states "neural adaptation generates significant strength gains with minimal hypertrophy and is responsible for much of the strength gains".

This all makes pretty clear picture what is the neural inhibition and what role it plays, in general. I can't, however, find anything about training for climbing, ideally on fingerboard or campus, that targets the neural inhibition and is focused on the neural adaptation.

Would there be any particular training method or the neural adaptation is simply assumed that maximum power and recruitment training should also improve the neural adaptation?

I'd be thankful for any comments and experiences on this topic.

Cheers
Mat

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#1 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 29, 2013, 08:46:53 pm
Plyometrics is the only thing I've come across as an exercise that overcomes the inhibition exerted by the golgi tendon which is what I assume you are refering to. From a climbing training point of view that means double dynoing on a campus board and similar exercises which have limited crossover to actual climbing. Also the inhibition has evolved to protect us from injury so overcoming it is almost by definition risky. I am open to  ideas/experiences to the contrary but on the face of it the downsides seem to significantly outweigh the upsides as a substitute to other intensive exercises for all but the very good who are looking at novel exercises for an alternative stimulus.

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#2 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 29, 2013, 08:59:15 pm
On specific moves you can have someone power-spot you a bit.

thekettle

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#3 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 29, 2013, 09:24:40 pm
As far as I am aware 'neural adaptation' and 'recruitment training' are the same thing in this case.
In both  you're trying to increase the number of muscle fibres recruited in the same instant to generate maximum power from your existing available fibres. The alternative path to more power is to increase the total number of fibres available through hypertrophy. Not so good because of the added weight, reduced flexibility etc
Hope that helps.
John

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#4 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 29, 2013, 11:58:30 pm
Hmm, with out reading the linked article....

Neural inhibition, where the brain over-rides the body? Surely the solution is to MTFU* and crush? :clown:


More scientifically how much of a quantifiable difference would this actually make?

* MTFU == Man The Fuck Up

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#5 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 09:12:59 am
I don't know much about neurophysiology other than in connection with pain so there is an element of speculation about some of the following.  An increase in neural inhibition of the larger muscles when pulling on smaller holds would seem like a protective adaptation reducing the high chance of destroying [the technical term] your fingers. Deliberate disinhibition seems like a high-risk strategy. I'd think the boring but sensible approach would be to strengthen the weakest link in the chain ie your fingers. Stronger fingers might result in less inhibition of the larger muscles [/wild speculation].

As far as I am aware 'neural adaptation' and 'recruitment training' are the same thing in this case.
In both  you're trying to increase the number of muscle fibres recruited in the same instant to generate maximum power from your existing available fibres. The alternative path to more power is to increase the total number of fibres available through hypertrophy. Not so good because of the added weight, reduced flexibility etc

Neural adaption is, crudely, getting stronger without getting bigger, so A Good Thing (for boulderers).  Neural adaption clearly happens but why it happens is less clear.  Suggested mechanisms include increasing the proportion of muscle fibres recruited as you say but might also involve changing the timing of muscle firing, the rate of muscle fibres firing, or the action of synergists. Recruiting a high proportion of muscle fibres at once is clearly good for powerful bouldering but might be detrimental for those weirdos who want to do more than a couple of moves consecutively.

There is a limit to the strength gain achievable through neural adaption, eventually hypertrophy occurs. In well-trained individuals the two run in parallel. Hypertrophy of the large muscle groups (lats., biceps etc.) may have costs as well as benefits but I can't see any down-sides in having forearms like Fred Nichole.


rosmat

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#6 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 10:03:29 am
Plyometrics is the only thing I've come across as an exercise that overcomes the inhibition exerted by the golgi tendon which is what I assume you are refering to. From a climbing training point of view that means double dynoing on a campus board and similar exercises which have limited crossover to actual climbing. Also the inhibition has evolved to protect us from injury so overcoming it is almost by definition risky. I am open to  ideas/experiences to the contrary but on the face of it the downsides seem to significantly outweigh the upsides as a substitute to other intensive exercises for all but the very good who are looking at novel exercises for an alternative stimulus.

I think there is more at play here than the Golgi tendon. Simply put it is the law of the weakest link. Neural inhibition (normally) prevents the larger muscle groups from exerting more force than can be handled by the weakest link (in this case finger strength).

It is also worth pointing out that pulling on holds exerts more force on the fingers than simply hanging the holds. Which may in part explain why the OP can "hang on the smaller edge for longish seconds, but can't pull towards next move".

There are two types of neural inhibition, conscious and somatic-reflexive:
Conscious inhibition stems from the perception (regardless of the accuracy of your belief) that attempting to lift a particular weight will cause you injury.

Somatic-reflexive inhibition is the result of feedback from different joint and muscle receptors (for example the Golgi tendon). This is one of the body’s protective mechanisms and this type of inhibition will reduce muscle tension during near maximal lifts.

Solution? Strength development reduces receptor sensitivity and is responsible (in part) for achieving larger levels force production.

In practice, the Eva Lopez (see other thread for details) style "max. hangs" will increase recruitment (and eventually cause hypertrophy) resulting in less neural inhibition.

Not sure plymometrics (for development of power) are the answer - but happy to listen to any arguments / information on this.





mloskot

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#7 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 01:52:16 pm
Plyometrics is the only thing I've come across as an exercise that overcomes the inhibition exerted by the golgi tendon which is what I assume you are refering to.

I didn't realised there is direct relation between the neural inhibition and the golgi tendon organ (GTO). So, brief research on that lead to this paper (I'm sure there is more) Neural inhibition during maximal eccentric and concentric quadriceps contraction: effects of resistance training which states:

"autogenic inhibition from Golgi organs seems to be a more likely candidate in accounting for the reduction in neuromuscular quadriceps activation during maximal eccentric vs. concentric contraction"

So yes, GTO and related reactions is what I'm referring to.
It seems, however, the there is a discussion on GTO vs other inhibitory mechanisms (muscle spindles), which one is stronger or which one activates when (fast vs slow stretches, how fast means fast etc.).
I guess, it isn't relevant to dive in into such great details, is it? 
After Lee E. Brown's explanation of Protective Mechanisms, it seems that only GTO adapatation is possible with resistance training anyway. So, let's stick to GTO.

From a climbing training point of view that means double dynoing on a campus board and similar exercises which have limited crossover to actual climbing. Also the inhibition has evolved to protect us from injury so overcoming it is almost by definition risky.

Assuming plyometric exercices target the neural adaptation and double dynos on campus work around the natural neural safety net, then no wonder it may easily lead to injuries (i.e. after switch to one size smaller rungs). But, I'm still unclear about plyometrics as the only thing that overcomes the inhibition.

On specific moves you can have someone power-spot you a bit.

Haven't heard of that. Is the power-spotting idea similar to the Forced Repetitions?

As far as I am aware 'neural adaptation' and 'recruitment training' are the same thing in this case.

Initially, I didn't see them the same, but it seems they are very closely related indeed.

However, AFAIU what Lee E. Brown writes, the amount of recruitment depends on load (i.e. max weight) applied and it does not have to rely on speed of movement. IOW, a deadhang from tiny hold (near one's limit) or very slow one arm pull-up/down leads to higher recruitment too, doesn't it?
The bigger load (weight), the higher demand for more muscle fiber to be activated.
So, GTO controls the fibres activaction limits, then indeed recruitment is the same as neural adaptation and because GTO can be 'trained' to allow heavier loads, then recruitment is increased.

I wonder, why plyometrics on campus are almost exclusively suggested as recruitment training.

Obviuosly, plyometrics combined with load should increase recruitment to some extent, but it seems to me there are more gains due to increased speed and explosiveness of contractions, and higher rate coding, than recruitment.
But, the recruitment itself is mostly increased by systematically increasing maximum load/weight.
The problem is, teadings like The myths about plyometrics published by MIT raise more questions than give answers :)

Searching continued, Plyometric Training Concepts for Performance Enhancement by Micheal Clark, Scott Lucett, National Academy of Sports Medicine suggests

"Plyometric training may promote better neuromuscular control of the contracting agonists and synergists, thus enabling the central nervous system to become more reflexive. These neural adaptations lead to enhanced neuromuscular efficiency"

Sounds good, but it still does not answer if the better control is due to decreased neural inhibition and the "enhanced neuromuscular efficiency" sounds more like higher rate coding thing mentioned earlier and teaching the system to react with higher speed. Anyhow. I'm aware the mechanisms are way too complex to assume only single process or single form of adaptation stands behind the gains.
The same book says there is no evidence that plyometrics increase strength, so here comes my doubt about plyometrics lead to significant increase of recruitmnent.

In both  you're trying to increase the number of muscle fibres recruited in the same instant to generate maximum power from your existing available fibres


The readings I've done seem to suggest there is a popular misconception possible.
Let's assume there is a constant amount of strength available (muscle fibres).

First, the power is increased by adapting the system to react quicker.
It is still unclear the adaptation happens solely due to decreased inhibition, but it may be the increasted speed of neural reaction, rate coding, etc.
And it seems to make sense, as the papers show that plyometrics don't increase strength, but the power, so they must increase the speed (as per the previous statement).
So, we train on campus.

Next, the strength factor is increased by making the muscle bigger (hypertrophy) or activating more fibres.
The latter, increased recruitment, is trained by increasing the load (bigger weigth/smaller holds).
So, we train on fingerboard.

Finally, we come back to the campus, to teach the newly activated fibres to work faster.

That seems to make sense to me, and if it does, then there is no real gain in muscle recruitment from the campus.
So, why the heck every one hits campus during recruitment phase?

I neither aim to bust plyometrics on campus nor deadhangs on fingerboard. I simply try to understand what works in what areas exactly.
Otherwise, if the only thing I've got is a hammer, then every thing looks like a nail.

So, looking around various climbing gyms, I see people jumping on campus, fingerboard, bouldering hard all in the same session.
I see more folks hitting on campus or fingerboard at the end of their climbing session, than doing it at the beginning.
Some of these folk I know as strong climbers, much stronger than I am, so I have no reason to believe they don't do the right thing.
On the other side, it's completely against the logic and conclusions from the papaers I'm researching.
Is that because "9 out of 10 climbers make the same mistakes"? :D

mloskot

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#8 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 02:05:25 pm
I'd think the boring but sensible approach would be to strengthen the weakest link in the chain ie your fingers. Stronger fingers might result in less inhibition of the larger muscles [/wild speculation].

Less inhibition in general, yes.

As far as I am aware 'neural adaptation' and 'recruitment training' are the same thing in this case.
In both  you're trying to increase the number of muscle fibres recruited in the same instant to generate maximum power from your existing available fibres. The alternative path to more power is to increase the total number of fibres available through hypertrophy. Not so good because of the added weight, reduced flexibility etc

Neural adaption is, crudely, getting stronger without getting bigger, so A Good Thing (for boulderers).  Neural adaption clearly happens but why it happens is less clear.  Suggested mechanisms include increasing the proportion of muscle fibres recruited as you say but might also involve changing the timing of muscle firing, the rate of muscle fibres firing, or the action of synergists. Recruiting a high proportion of muscle fibres at once is clearly good for powerful bouldering but might be detrimental for those weirdos who want to do more than a couple of moves consecutively.

It may be inevitable to clarify or distinguish various forms of "neural adaption".
My initial post asks questions about role of neural inhibition, but further discussion showed there is (might be) more involved.

So far, I understand it this simplified way which I think is not terribly incorrect:

1) neural inhibition is a process related mostly to tresholds set by GTO activation which prevents further motor unit recruitment. The neural inhibition can be decreased due to neural adaptation triggered by training.

2) neural efficiency is related to speed of response and here adaptation is also possible, due to increased rate coding and increased speed of a muscular contraction controlled by the muscle spindle thing.

There surely are more detailed mechanisms and elements involved.
Corrections strongly welcome.

mloskot

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#9 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 02:11:28 pm
It is also worth pointing out that pulling on holds exerts more force on the fingers than simply hanging the holds. Which may in part explain why the OP can "hang on the smaller edge for longish seconds, but can't pull towards next move".

There are two types of neural inhibition, conscious and somatic-reflexive:
Conscious inhibition stems from the perception (regardless of the accuracy of your belief) that attempting to lift a particular weight will cause you injury.

Somatic-reflexive inhibition is the result of feedback from different joint and muscle receptors (for example the Golgi tendon). This is one of the body’s protective mechanisms and this type of inhibition will reduce muscle tension during near maximal lifts.

Interesting.

I'd put the conscious inhibition on a side, and focus on the somatic-reflexive one. Actually, the somatic-reflexive inhibition seems to be another name for what I'm discussing.

Solution? Strength development reduces receptor sensitivity and is responsible (in part) for achieving larger levels force production.

In practice, the Eva Lopez (see other thread for details) style "max. hangs" will increase recruitment (and eventually cause hypertrophy) resulting in less neural inhibition.

Sounds we're compatible here, reduced receptor sensitivity seems to translate to the adapted threshold (of GTO, AFAIU) to allow activation of more muscle fibers.

Not sure plymometrics (for development of power) are the answer - but happy to listen to any arguments / information on this.

I'm glad I'm not the only one doubtful.

rosmat

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#10 Re: How to decrease neural inhibition?
January 30, 2013, 02:13:25 pm
On specific moves you can have someone power-spot you a bit.

Power spotting? I think I've see that before somewhere, is that similiar to "assisted dyno"? :


 

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